The Dim-Post

November 10, 2009

End of history, 20 years on.

Filed under: economics, history — danylmc @ 2:45 pm

LeninStatuePhilosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it.

Karl Marx, Thesis on Feuerbach.1845

I’ve been reading a lot of the blogging and MSM coverage of the fall of the Berlin Wall and collapse of Communism and most of the theories/tropes seem flawed, or at best simplistic. So here are a couple of thoughts:

  • If you’re overthrowing a despotic regime then people power is important. But if the army and state security services are willing to use force against it’s own citizens it doesn’t count for much (see China in ‘89, Iran this year). ‘People power’ was successful in East Germany because there was a lack of political will to suppress dissent. In some cases when shoot to kill orders were issued the Stasi refused to obey them. So, strange as it is to say, I think many of the main heroes in the reunification of Germany were Stasi agents and officials of the Honecker government – although obviously the ultimate hero was Gorbachev, who publically announced that he would not stand in the way of reform in Eastern Europe and privately advised leaders that the Red Army would not protect their regimes.
  • Did the regimes fall because of the economic failure/moral bankruptcy of Communism? I don’t think so: if we look at states like Zimbabwe, Cuba, Burma and North Korea we see that totalitarian regimes that are morally and/or economically bankrupt can still endure. Geopolitical events like the collapse of energy prices in the late 1970s and the failed occupation in Afghanistan seem much more significant and they would have damaged the empire whether it was Communist or Capitalist or Tsarist.
  • I do think there’s an economic case to be made for the disintegration of the Soviet Empire though; economic factors forced Gorbachev to charge market prices for USSR goods exported to Comecon countries – this crippled the regimes that had all relied on Soviet largesse. But there’s no reason they couldn’t have struggled on as bankrupt, quasi-independent satellites.
  • Did western leaders play a significant role? People like to say that politicians they like – usually Thatcher, Reagan or Mitterrand – ‘won the Cold War’. I think this is nonsense; In the early 80s there was a struggle for power between different factions of the Soviet politburo: if some protege of Brezhnev had prevailed instead of Andropov’s man Gorbachev then the Cold War could have endured for decades. If the popular movements in Europe hadn’t been calling for change or had been resisted then there’s no reason Gorbachev wouldn’t have gone down in history as the Russian equivalent of Deng Xiopang, ushering in market reforms while maintaining the party’s stranglehold on power. I do think Pope John Paul II played a significant role in promoting the Polish democracy movement (and much of the funding came from private Catholic donors in the US and western Europe) and the formation of the common market and the European Union had an undeniable impact on intellectuals in Poland, Germany and Czechoslovakia, but the impact Western leaders was negligible; Gorbachev has noted that Reagan’s belligerence strengthened the hard-liners in the Kremlin and made his economic reforms more difficult, so if anything there was a negative impact by western leaders at the time.
  • Things have worked out pretty well for West Germany, not so great for a lot of the other former communist states: Russia has exchanged socialism for a faux-democratic form of fascism; life expectancy, literacy and other quality of life standards have declined subsequent to adopting the free-market model. There is free speech in theory but the majority of broadcast media is owned by the state. Print journalists who criticise the regime are routinely murdered; the crimes are rarely investigated. The state of the democratic and civil institutions are increasingly farcical; the country is ruled by a small cadre of men who were senior operatives in the state security services of the former Communist regime. So the ‘good triumphed over evil’ message that’s implicit to a lot of the coverage seems pretty silly to me.

67 Comments »

  1. West Germany has done okay – East Germany is still pretty much an economically stagnant unemployment-fest. Smug comments about the way $OCIALI$M has impaired Germany’s economy aside, the net effect has been not unlike what would happen if America annexed Mexico tommorow.

    Comment by JD — November 10, 2009 @ 2:52 pm

  2. You outdid yourself Danyl. You would have stood at the wall and proclaimed: this is gonna be here for a very long while. Just as all your comrades thought and wished.

    Comment by Berend de Boer — November 10, 2009 @ 3:15 pm

  3. We all know that they tore it down because Reagan asked Gorby to do so. don’t you know anything about history?

    Comment by philonz — November 10, 2009 @ 3:19 pm

  4. History is not instrumental, nor is it teleological – those gushing over the 20 yrs since the Wall should know better.

    They should know better, but they never will. A firm belief in strong and unidirectional causality in history towards a predetermined outcome is symptomatic of such people. In that they share more with their Communist antagonists than they would like to think.

    Comment by George Darroch — November 10, 2009 @ 3:26 pm

  5. Just like to add this to your fourth point:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6829735.ece

    Unification of Germany and the fall of the wall wasn’t considered to be in the best interests of the West, despite public ideological posturing. The impact of Western leaders on perestroika was minimal; the impact of Western leaders working behind the scenes to ensure stability – the maintenance of the status quo – in Eastern European satellite states worked against the principles of perestroika and glasnost.

    Comment by Chris C — November 10, 2009 @ 3:35 pm

  6. All those Eastern Block countries have now become assimilated into the European Union, which some right-wingers consider an evil socialist empire.

    Comment by Adhominem — November 10, 2009 @ 3:49 pm

  7. @ Adhominem

    It must really grate with the Eastern European countries that fought so hard to rid themselves of Russian influence to hear the free trade and free movement union they fought so hard to join described as the EUSSR…

    …by a bunch of blowhards who frankly don’t know they’re fucking born.

    Comment by Chris C — November 10, 2009 @ 4:22 pm

  8. There is a strong argument that the combined excesses of Stalin and Hitler – but particularly Hitler – created a slow burning demographic and economic catastrophe that guaranteed the end of the USSR. Of course, the idea that we might actually owe our precious capitalist ‘victory’ over communism to the frenzied genocidal slaughter of a bunch of homocidal racists doesn’t really go down that well with capitalist triumphalists like Francis Fukuyama or even Christopher Hitchens.

    The Stalinist purges and the terrors of the secret police obscure the real achievements of the Soviet government up to and after WWII. In 1914 Tsarist Russia was a hopelessly corrupt oligarchy, the weakest by far of the great powers. In 1920 output was less than 20% of the feeble pre-war levels. Under Soviet rule real standards of living rose dramatically and the USSR experienced growth rates in excess of 10% year after year until the outbreak of WWII. Despite the devastation of WWII, the lack of a Marshall plan or any US money by 1952 industrial output in the USSR was twice that of 1941. Much of this was due to the looting of Eatern Europe – Germany in particular – but who would deny the Russians that after what they had been through.

    None of this should be taken as an excuse or apology for the evils of the Cheka, the NKVD, the KGB and the Gulag. But we are fooling ourselve if we believe communism isn’t capable of delivering economic results every bit as impressive as capitalism can, and distribute that wealth more equitably. As a mechanism for raising people mass poverty to the point of economic take off it cannot be rivalled. The USSR only collapsed because they missed the third industrial revolution – their totalitarian command economy proved not flexible enough in the form that it took.

    But interest in Marxism is, I read, surging again. Capitalism has had its two decades of pure market triumphalism and its proved to be every bit as corrupt and inefficient as any pure central command economy ever was.

    The fall of the USSR will turn out to be a big favour for Marxism and Communism. Left wingers can start afresh with a clean sheet of paper, and hopefully Communism 2.0 will soon be coming to a country near us soon.

    Comment by Sanctuary — November 10, 2009 @ 5:06 pm

  9. “But interest in Marxism is, I read, surging again.”

    But he got (scientific) historical materialism so wrong. Wrong since he didn’t understand history or science. If one combined Jared Diamond and Steven Pinker then I think you’d get what Marx should have said.

    But one of the insights of evolutionary psychlogy is that any form of utopianism is bound to lead to mass slaughter. I think Orwell had a similar insight.

    Comment by Neil — November 10, 2009 @ 6:04 pm

  10. @sanctuary

    One could also argue that ‘the Eastern bloc’ fell apart because it could not match the largess of the marshal plan in the buffer states and Afghanistan was the nail in the coffin of the soviet empire.

    Also capitalism via the American empire has failed only recently due to not having a counter balancing or opposing ideology to keep it excesses in check. An historic economic mutually assured destruction of a kind.

    Notice at the height of the cold war capitalism was at its ‘best’ in regards that it was more egalitarian than the command economies professed to be.

    Further more, hard line ideological movements only last the generation that give birth to them (my bet is Cuba will change rapidly after the Castro’s have gone), the next want something different maybe only incremental but different . Even for the likes of china that something different is more economic freedom, next generation will want more. The fall of the wall was the end of the era of the old guard. We will also see a change in our world when the baby boomers have let us.

    Comment by andy — November 10, 2009 @ 7:17 pm

  11. Capitalist versus Communist is a recurring them on this blog.

    Maybe some day somebody can explain to me the difference between Communism and Socialism and between Democratic society and Capitalism.

    I am left with the feeling that we have been so much part of the American dream that we, like George W Bush think of free markets in the first instance and personal and political freedom second when talking about freedom.

    Comment by cj_nza — November 10, 2009 @ 8:14 pm

  12. Andy:

    To paraphrase Winston Churchill: It has been said that capitalism is the worst economic system except for all the others that have been tried.

    Comment by MacDoctor — November 10, 2009 @ 10:57 pm

  13. We all know that they tore it down because Reagan asked Gorby to do so.

    Regean’s speech didn’t even get reported on in Germany (or Russia), so the idea that it ended the Cold War is just daft.

    Comment by danylmc — November 11, 2009 @ 5:27 am

  14. To paraphrase Winston Churchill: It has been said that capitalism is the worst economic system except for all the others that have been tried.

    The revolutionaries in Germany, Poland etc seem to have been far more interested in western european style socialist democracy than US style capitalism; unfortunately for them most of ‘em got radical economic reform but little or no political reform. A free market is still better than a planned one but a crappy substitute for free speech, open elections and all that other good stuff.

    Comment by danylmc — November 11, 2009 @ 5:30 am

  15. Reagan’s speech didn’t even get reported on in Germany (or Russia), so the idea that it ended the Cold War is just daft.

    Just as Gorbachev, while being lionised in Germany, was simultaneously largely reviled in the crumbling Soviet Union.

    Comment by joe W — November 11, 2009 @ 6:06 am

  16. Danyl: Regean’s speech didn’t even get reported on in Germany (or Russia)

    I’m sure you have a source for that Danyl…

    Comment by Berend de Boer — November 11, 2009 @ 7:43 am

  17. Berend why do you hang round here? It’s clearly bad for your blood pressure

    Comment by david c — November 11, 2009 @ 7:46 am

  18. “But one of the insights of evolutionary psychlogy is that any form of utopianism is bound to lead to mass slaughter.”

    yeah, like the time Thoreau killed 200 orphans with his bare hands

    Comment by bradluen — November 11, 2009 @ 8:20 am

  19. Andy:

    To paraphrase Winston Churchill: It has been said that capitalism is the worst economic system except for all the others that have been tried.

    Comment by MacDoctor

    That’s one hell of a paraphrase. Churchill was talking about democracy.

    Comment by Chris C — November 11, 2009 @ 8:28 am

  20. Regean’s speech didn’t even get reported on in Germany (or Russia), so the idea that it ended the Cold War is just daft.

    My point exactly. I get a bit sick of the US TV networks playing that clip over and over as if it actually had any effect on anything.

    Comment by philonz — November 11, 2009 @ 8:33 am

  21. @ 19, true but MacD did at least change “Political System” to “Economic system” together with his change from “Democracy” to “Capitalism”.

    Comment by cj_nza — November 11, 2009 @ 8:56 am

  22. “Regean’s speech didn’t even get reported on in Germany (or Russia), so the idea that it ended the Cold War is just daft.”

    There’s a TIME article linked off Wikipedia which notes that TASS, the Soviet press agency, condemned the speech as “openly provocative war-mongering” – no mention however on whether or not Reagan’s actual words were reported (or in what form, or with what degree of distortion).

    For all I know that may have been as far as it went – those Soviet citizens who still paid attention to the papers saying “hey, says here President Reagan made a speech at the Wall, doesn’t say what he said but probably just the usual American stuff, never mind”.

    I’m sure Berend has a source to disprove that…?

    Comment by Sam Finnemore — November 11, 2009 @ 9:13 am

  23. Well it was the Germans who knocked down the wall, rejoining their capital city and country.
    I went to Berlin for the New Year reunification. I’d never seen so many drunk and happy people.
    If Helmut Kohl had not taken the initiative, things might have ended differently

    Comment by Adhominem — November 11, 2009 @ 9:29 am

  24. I just miss the good old days, when you could learn the map of Europe in half an hour and the toughest quiz question was knowing Bucharest from Budapest.

    Damn freedom, making me ignorant again.

    Comment by sammy — November 11, 2009 @ 10:36 am

  25. “like the time Thoreau killed 200 orphans with his bare hands”

    perhaps if Engels had paid more attention to Thoreau than to Lewis Morgan things could have worked out differently.

    Thoreau did inspire Walden Two which he can’t be blamed for but it’s where that strain of thinking often winds up.

    Comment by Neil — November 11, 2009 @ 11:13 am

  26. Just to add some names to your first point (those in the system who stood back and let things happen). DDR politbureau spokesman Günter Schabowski misread a policy statement and told a press conference that visas to teh West were to be made available immediately. Harald Jäger was the border police commander who opened the first gate in the Berlin Wall after the crowds gathered.

    (Shamelessly Ihimaeraed from this great post: http://edgeofthewest.wordpress.com/2009/11/09/the-address-that-brought-down-the-wall/)

    Comment by Conrad — November 11, 2009 @ 11:16 am

  27. Bugger, added a bracket to the link above The correct address is:
    http://edgeofthewest.wordpress.com/2009/11/09/the-address-that-brought-down-the-wall/

    Comment by Conrad — November 11, 2009 @ 11:20 am

  28. “All those Eastern Block countries have now become assimilated into the European Union, which some right-wingers consider an evil socialist empire.” – Adhominem

    “It must really grate with the Eastern European countries that fought so hard to rid themselves of Russian influence to hear the free trade and free movement union they fought so hard to join described as the EUSSR…by a bunch of blowhards who frankly don’t know they’re fucking born.” – Chris C.

    “A free market is still better than a planned one but a crappy substitute for free speech, open elections and all that other good stuff.” – DimPost

    “I am left with the feeling that we…think of free markets in the first instance and personal and political freedom second when talking about freedom.” – cj_nza

    I wonder how long it will take before the citizens of Europe realise they have neither a free market nor democracy, that they can vote for MPs and MEPs, but the laws aren’t proposed or drafted by them, they can vote for councilors, but the money doled-out by the regional development agencies is controlled from Brussels. Just a thought.

    Comment by Clunking Fist — November 11, 2009 @ 12:25 pm

  29. I was always a little unclear about what communism would look like. Marx himself doesn’t provide a lot of details but where he does it’s not encouraging -

    “In communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.”

    The dream that launched a thousand sociopaths.

    Comment by Neil — November 11, 2009 @ 12:49 pm

  30. I’m sure you have a source for that Danyl…

    Cannon mentions it in his biography of Reagan, but Tony Judt and Tim Garton-Ash have made the same point; the Orwellian East-German media was not disposed to print incendiary speeches by enemies of the regime. As Sam pointed out TASS merely described it as ‘openly provocative war-mongering’. It was also given over two and a half years before the wall fell; Reagan was out of office when it actually happened.

    Comment by danylmc — November 11, 2009 @ 1:11 pm

  31. See, Marx didn’t spend much time describing life under Communism because he wasn’t Utopian* (c.f., say, Edward Bellamy). Some of his intellectual descendants were Utopian, but then some of Adam Smith’s intellectual descendants are Utopian, so I don’t think that shows much.

    *Unless you’re using Pinker’s redefinition of “Utopian”, which I find too imprecise to be useful, but one’s mileage may vary.

    Comment by bradluen — November 11, 2009 @ 1:34 pm

  32. Neil, my partner is administrator, organiser, councillor, nurse, chef, chauffeur, entertainer, housekeeper, vegetable grower, gardener, poet and more. Then in addition she keeps a day job.

    I specialise in keeping myself entertained.

    The sociopath is…

    Comment by cj_nza — November 11, 2009 @ 1:35 pm

  33. @Clunking Fist

    Yeah, I’m pretty sure that only democracies are allowed in the EU, but keep raging about how a voluntary union of states is just like the USSR, bro.

    Comment by JD — November 11, 2009 @ 3:02 pm

  34. Yeah, I’m pretty sure that only democracies are allowed in the EU

    Oh yeah? Then how did the despotic, socialist distopia of Sweden get in?

    Comment by danylmc — November 11, 2009 @ 3:33 pm

  35. I wonder how long it will take before the citizens of Europe realise they have neither a free market nor democracy, that they can vote for MPs and MEPs, but the laws aren’t proposed or drafted by them, they can vote for councilors, but the money doled-out by the regional development agencies is controlled from Brussels. Just a thought.

    Clunking Fist

    Er. Free market? The founding principles of the EEA, the EEC and the EU are for liberalisation of trade within a specific area, and negotiations on free trade agreements from a position of economic strength through the coalition of nations. And even at the national level, ordinary people don’t draft laws or propose them except by means of lobby groups or relations with their MPs. Whichever utopian (haha) anarchist society you’re talking about, I’m sure it doesn’t exist outside of a dream based on the Minerva Reefs.

    We, the citizens of the EU, directly elect our regional representatives in a proportional system that ensures that even the most extreme of minorities enjoy representation, in Brussels, to enable them to have their say on legislation that gets passed through that parliament. These aren’t supranational personalities running the EU – they are actually people who live in the member states.

    You know why Turkey isn’t a member of the EU? Because they don’t have freedom of anything. Because they seem to think that banging up as much of your population for crimes against the name of a dead man is a good idea, because they think that new motorways and starving the poorest are symbolic of freedom, because they think that lip service to social freedoms and torture in their police cells are great methods of making a society calm and serene…

    …again. Eurosceptics who love to hear their own voices shouting erosion of democracy, EUSSR and saying that communism has come down from above in the form of Brussels bureaucrats don’t know they’re born.

    Comment by Chris C — November 11, 2009 @ 3:43 pm

  36. @ Clunker: Open borders and a common currency is the best way to enable free trade. It reduces a lot of transaction costs.

    Comment by Adhominem — November 11, 2009 @ 4:04 pm

  37. “the Orwellian East-German media was not disposed to print incendiary speeches by enemies of the regime.”

    Couldn’t people in East Berlin pick up West German radio stations?

    Comment by kahikatea — November 11, 2009 @ 4:38 pm

  38. “Yeah, I’m pretty sure that only democracies are allowed in the EU, but keep raging about how a voluntary union of states is just like the USSR, bro.” True the countries entering

    Did anyone ask the people whether they wanted the New Constitution (aka Lisbon Treaty)? Actually, yes:
    – The French were asked: “Non, merci!”
    – The Dutch were asked: “Nr, dankt u!”
    – The Irish were asked: “Feck-off!” Wrong answer!
    Spain (recipient of funding) and Luxembourg said yes, but The Danes had their referendum pulled. The Danes did get to reject the euro in a referendum, though! The Czech, Polish and Portuguese referendums were “postponed” after the rejections by France and Nederlands and never took place…

    “The European Court of Auditors has published its annual report on the EU’s £110 billion budget and, while noting some improvements in the management of funds, we learn that it has refused to sign off the EU’s accounts for the 15th year running.”

    Is it still fashionable to read Pravda?
    http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/04-11-2009/110289-berlin_wall-0

    “Clunker: Open borders and a common currency is the best way to enable free trade. It reduces a lot of transaction costs.” True, but at what cost to sovereignty? ECB monetary policy settings were too tight for Germany & France, too loose for Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Greece. Luckily for the integrity of the currency, those economies have slide into recession and taken the pressure off inflation. I was living there at the time of introduction and it was great to have fewer currencies to deal with, though.
    There’s more to life than free trade, Ad. Free trade and the free-markets should follow automatically from freedom. How does a rule about the curve of a banana aid freedom?

    Comment by Clunking Fist — November 11, 2009 @ 6:14 pm

  39. Oops…
    True the countries entering were democracies, but can you say the union is democratic? How do you vote for a European Commissioner? Answer: you can’t.

    Comment by Clunking Fist — November 11, 2009 @ 6:16 pm

  40. But the EU isn’t _supposed_ to be democratic – it’s a voluntary association of democratic states which agree to behave in certain ways toward each other, including harmonising certain aspects of their domestic policies. If the citizens of a particular state don’t like that, they’re entirely entitled to elect a Government which repudiates the various treaties comprising the EU.

    Obviously that’s not an ideal way to operate a country, so I guess it’s a good thing the EU is no more a country than the UN, the WTO or NATO.

    Comment by JD — November 11, 2009 @ 7:00 pm

  41. “Then in addition she keeps a day job.”

    what, no hunting and fishing?

    the lack of such tasks in Marx’s list as cooking and child-rearing was striking. Utopia as bourgeois male fantasy. No wonder it all went pear-shaped.

    Comment by Neil — November 11, 2009 @ 8:52 pm

  42. Hopefully some of the right-leaning people in this country take the time to stop, think and realise that this country really isnt the tyrannical nanny state hell hole that they repeatedly go on about it being.

    Farrar and Slater may go on and on about communism, but last time I looked I didnt see Helen’s secret police breaking down their doors in the middle of the night and carting them off to some labour camp in the Rangipo desert.

    You want nanny state, Ill show you 1970’s Romania. That is a nanny state.

    Comment by millsy — November 11, 2009 @ 8:53 pm

  43. You want nanny state, Ill show you 1970’s Romania. That is a nanny state.

    millsy

    No, that’s a police state, and that’s okay with them because they’ve done nothing wrong.

    Comment by Chris C — November 11, 2009 @ 9:01 pm

  44. How does a rule about the curve of a banana aid freedom?

    Comment by Clunking Fist

    Look, you’re buying right into a bunch of tabloid myths spread about the European Union. It was never specifically about banana curvature although that was a part of it. Rather, it was actually about food standards, in that if you’re going to throw trade across so many national borders open and if you’re going to open 20+ countries to universal FTAs, then you have to have universal standards that can be applied. Freedom in the sense of free trade is aided by centralised, uniform standards both within the EU and from the outside (which would be the source of the bananas). The only caveat on curvature in the legislation you’re talking about is that a banana must be “free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers”. It’s specific, and more than reasonable when set into context. This isn’t the only type of fruit or vegetable to be given their own standards for classifications.

    Specific requirements on specific products aren’t anything new or extraordinary or exclusive to the EU – just take a look at some of the free trade agreements on NZ’s table.

    Comment by Chris C — November 11, 2009 @ 9:19 pm

  45. “…but last time I looked I didnt see Helen’s secret police breaking down their doors in the middle of the night and carting them off to some labour camp in the Rangipo desert.”

    it wasn’t the right that were accusing Clark of that it was left wing activists with the Urewera raids.

    Hone H may be a rude and objectionable but better to have him in parliament than crazies with guns in the Ureweras.

    Comment by Neil — November 11, 2009 @ 9:36 pm

  46. Rude and objectionable? That’s like saying Winston enjoys the odd tipple on occasion – Hone was racist and offensive, and the Maori Party’s limp response is undermining their credibility.

    …but better to have him in parliament than crazies with guns in the Ureweras

    Because those are the only two options open to us?

    Comment by Ataahua — November 12, 2009 @ 7:13 am

  47. “Couldn’t people in East Berlin pick up West German radio stations?”

    Probably, if they were prepared to explain to the authorities should they be caught listening.

    You could often pick up Western TV signals as well – except if you lived in the far northeast or southeast (around Dresden or Rugen). Thus even twenty years after the fall of the Wall some people still refer to Dresden as the ‘Valley of the Clueless’.

    Comment by Sam Finnemore — November 12, 2009 @ 8:14 am

  48. ”Rather, it was actually about food standards… you have to have universal standards”

    Jaysus, you did READ the item you linked to? You do know that Woolies does not staff its produce department with lawyers, right?

    “Look, you’re buying right into a bunch of tabloid myths spread about the European Union.” So it’s not true that only the Commissioners can propose legislation? That ordinary citizens do not get to vote for a Commissioner? At least in this country the MPs get to propose law, with the majority grouping getting to set the policy agenda.
    Sovereign nations have, in effect, given up the right to write their own laws. Why, if it’s all about trade, are there so many rules about so many things OTHER than trade?

    “And even at the national level, ordinary people don’t draft laws or propose them except by means of lobby groups or relations with their MPs.”
    What relationship can “ordinary people” have with an EU Commissioner? A Commissioner is NOT equivalent to an MP as there are appointed, not elected. An MEP is NOT equivalent to an MP, as they can only vote on what is put before them, not propose their own law.

    “We, the citizens of the EU, directly elect our regional representatives in a proportional system that ensures that even the most extreme of minorities enjoy representation”
    I repeat, the MEP is not like the MP, is she?

    How do you feel about how much your country gives to the EU? Do you think it value for money? Who appoints the boards of the regional development agencies? Who sets their agenda? Who monitors that taxpayers get value for money from the agencies? Do you know how much funding the BBC receives from the EU? Why do they receive this funding?
    http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=34956

    Comment by Clunking Fist — November 12, 2009 @ 12:42 pm

  49. “Couldn’t people in East Berlin pick up West German radio stations?”

    They could – that’s how a lot of people heard that they could cross over into West Germany. But – and this is really, really key – Reagan’s speech was not really reported on, in much the same way that when John Key goes to Australia his speeches are not blanketing the air-waves.

    Comment by danylmc — November 12, 2009 @ 12:46 pm

  50. “Because those are the only two options open to us?”

    I was overly cryptic. Talking for myself, I’m prepared for a government to come down hard on seperatist groups and I think we should take very seriously the danger of folie situations of the sort Tama Iti was getting into. But on the other hand I’m prepared to not get too irked by Hone’s intemperate language.

    That’s the sort of argument I put forward to people who think Anette Sykes spends more tham a few days on planet earth.

    Comment by Neil — November 12, 2009 @ 1:52 pm

  51. @ Clunking Fist

    What part of “the EU is a collection of sovereign states with democratically accountable governments” do you find confusing?

    The reason no state has left the EU is simple: it would be economic and political suicide for a national government to do so.

    Comment by JD — November 12, 2009 @ 3:16 pm

  52. Jaysus, you did READ the item you linked to? You do know that Woolies does not staff its produce department with lawyers, right?

    It’s nothing to do with lawyers in Woolies, and it’s nothing to do with lawyers in the fields picking produce either. Did you even read what I said? It’s across-the-board standards in a free trade area, and standards for exportation and importation from and to that area. The banana bullshit was Eurosceptic nonsense that said they’re trying to prevent us doing A, B, C. You fell for that BS, and you’re continuing to fall for it.

    So it’s not true that only the Commissioners can propose legislation? That ordinary citizens do not get to vote for a Commissioner? At least in this country the MPs get to propose law, with the majority grouping getting to set the policy agenda.
    Sovereign nations have, in effect, given up the right to write their own laws. Why, if it’s all about trade, are there so many rules about so many things OTHER than trade?

    It’s only true in administrative principle. The reality is that most legislation is proposed by Council and Parliament, so legislation can exist anywhere. The administrative principle states that only formal legislation can be drafted by the Commission – which is made up of 27 members of each of the countries of the EU – not that proposals aren’t taken from the Council or Parliament. In fact, this method is more democratic than, say, the UK Parliament’s version, where legislation is only drafted by the government in power and the FPTP system ensures that the government in power, through use of the whip, has a reasonable enough majority to pass most legislation with amendment.

    It was about trade and free movement in the first instance. Now it’s about all the other things that go along with international trade and movement, because they don’t exist in isolation. It’s about strengthening the economic power of the nations by removing barriers to trade, movement and standardising law. Of course, law doesn’t have to be standardised across nations. Nations don’t have to adopt laws. It’s just that in the majority of cases, it’s beneficial for the country that they do. Do you really think that all members of all 27 governments are so stupid and naive that they’d willingly give up sovereign powers to the EU?

    What relationship can “ordinary people” have with an EU Commissioner? A Commissioner is NOT equivalent to an MP as there are appointed, not elected. An MEP is NOT equivalent to an MP, as they can only vote on what is put before them, not propose their own law.

    If you want to talk to a Commissioner, then they have to listen. Try it. That’s in God-knows-what treaty. It’s just like if you want to talk to your PM, who’s also a member of the Council, or your MEP, who represents you on various issues. And again, it’s an administrative procedure to aid the smooth running of the legislative process – most EU laws originate with Council members or MEPs on the floor.

    I repeat, the MEP is not like the MP, is she?

    How do you feel about how much your country gives to the EU? Do you think it value for money? Who appoints the boards of the regional development agencies? Who sets their agenda? Who monitors that taxpayers get value for money from the agencies? Do you know how much funding the BBC receives from the EU? Why do they receive this funding?

    The MEP is very much like the MP. They have very similar powers in their respective parliaments. The difference is that there’s no one controlling government in Brussels as there is in national parliaments. The agenda is different. It’s less populist and more about the passage of effective legislation than legislation that means someone will keep their seat.

    Because the EU is all about countries in an economic zone aiding each other in many ways. That means that, for the benefit of all free citizens of the EU, the cultural sites of, say, Liverpool will be maintained, free and available for German visitors just as the cultural sites of Berlin will be available and maintained for British visitors to Germany. I don’t intend to answer a flurry of questions on RDAs, or explain why I don’t care how much the BBC gets from the EU – although as a fully publicly funded PSB, it’s a pittence compared to what they get from the licence fee, which I think is great value for money.

    But the main answer you’re looking for is that the UK gives about €12bn in contributions to the EU each year. They also get a €4bn rebate, and in comparison to GDP and the economic benefits of EU membership – that’s not including money they get back for projects, but tarif free trade benefits for business and mass negotiations with other zones – that’s microscopic. UK GDP is somewhere around €2tn, for comparison.

    Like JD said, at this point, leaving the EU would be a nightmare, both in terms of administrative law and economically. I’m happy the UK is in the EU, and have been happy to pay for it when I’ve been there, and when I go back – to one of the EU states I have rights of residence and rights to work in – I’ll be happy to pay for it again.

    Comment by Chris C — November 12, 2009 @ 4:20 pm

  53. JD says “What part of “the EU is a collection of sovereign states with democratically accountable governments” do you find confusing?”

    The bit about how the democratically voted-for MPs have lost the power to pass their own laws, about how the EU is about to APPOINT a President, a Foreign Policy Minister, etc, etc. Why does a “free-trade agreement” need these things? An Appeals Court? A Privacy Commissioner? Regional Development Agencies?

    Which bit of “national governments are slowly ceding sovereignty to the EU Commission and there’s nowt you can do about it” do you find confusing?

    “The reason no state has left the EU is simple: it would be economic and political suicide for a national government to do so.”
    Yes, self-assured destruction, wouldn’t you say? “Stay or else!”

    Chris C says “Do you really think that all members of all 27 governments are so stupid and naive that they’d willingly give up sovereign powers to the EU?”
    Well, they are stupid and naïve enough not to have read the Lisbon Treaty before ratifying it. Tony Benn, that old leftist activist former MP, pleaded with his MP son Hilary not to vote to ratify.

    “The MEP is very much like the MP. They have very similar powers in their respective parliaments. The difference is that there’s no one controlling government in Brussels as there is in national parliaments. The agenda is different. It’s less populist and more about the passage of effective legislation than legislation that means someone will keep their seat.”
    The agenda is VERY similar and the same as for John Key as it was for Helen Clark: power at almost any cost.

    “But the main answer you’re looking for is that the UK gives about [€8bn net] in contributions to the EU each year.[I]n comparison to GDP and the economic benefits of EU membership – that’s not including money they get back for projects, but tarif free trade benefits for business and mass negotiations with other zones – that’s microscopic.”
    So you’d be happy for us to pay a %age of our GDP to APAC before we are allowed to join the club? Is the extra wealth created via new trade with the other EU members really worth 12bn? When does the 4bn rebate cease..?
    What are your thoughts about the multiplier effect of gummint spending? Why does the UK need foreign aid for its regions? Why can’t the UK decide how much to spend in its own regions? Set its own taxes without fear of censure?

    “Like JD said, at this point, leaving the EU would be a nightmare, both in terms of administrative law and economically. I’m happy the UK is in the EU, and have been happy to pay for it” well, UK is running a gummint deficit around 10% of GDP, so your great grand children will be paying for it, too, unless they have the sense to leave.

    Comment by Clunking Fist — November 13, 2009 @ 12:13 pm

  54. @ Clunker: As you are like Tony Benn, and have read the Lisbon Treaty, which parts of it do you dislike?

    Comment by Adhominem — November 13, 2009 @ 12:33 pm

  55. Well, they are stupid and naïve enough not to have read the Lisbon Treaty before ratifying it. Tony Benn, that old leftist activist former MP, pleaded with his MP son Hilary not to vote to ratify.

    Oh, they read Lisbon, or Son of Constitution. They know exactly what’s in there. And Tony Benn is an Old Labour activist, and always has been very viciously anti-Europe. The Old Left in Britain are like that. And Tony Benn, head of a socialist dynasty that involves three generations in politics now, also hates Nato, the Upper House, the monarchy and just about anything else that doesn’t fit with his… well, to put it simply, his Trotskyite agenda. Which included shutting down pirate radio stations with the Marine Broadcasting Bill because freedom of airtime didn’t agree with the unionisation of the music industry.

    So you’d be happy for us to pay a %age of our GDP to APAC before we are allowed to join the club? Is the extra wealth created via new trade with the other EU members really worth 12bn? When does the 4bn rebate cease..?
    What are your thoughts about the multiplier effect of gummint spending? Why does the UK need foreign aid for its regions? Why can’t the UK decide how much to spend in its own regions? Set its own taxes without fear of censure?

    Not before joining, no. That’d be the IR equivalent of paying for a video club membership and not being allowed to rent anything for a year. The trade the UK generates, and speeding of trade, etc. makes it more than worth it. The vast majority of the UK’s business is with Europe, so it’s more than worth being in the same economic zone. I expect the same kind of high level negotiations over everything that took place before every national accession to the EU, or in fact APEC itself.

    It’s also not foreign aid. It’s not aid at all. It’s development funding that gets pushed out of the well-performing areas of the EU and back into the less well performing areas. You know, originally from Ireland and then having lived in Liverpool and Manchester, I’ve seen the positive net results of the redistribution of EU funds that aren’t based on the largesse of government or politically motivated, but motivated by the requirements of the area. So you can’t really talk me out of the benefits of EU funding and EU trade. And no-one, by the way, sets taxation rates except national governments. Even those countries who adopted the Euro set their own taxation rates.

    UK is running a gummint deficit around 10% of GDP, so your great grand children will be paying for it, too, unless they have the sense to leave.

    7%, and the balance sheet is skewed because the bank bailouts. Should see the money that goes toward servicing debts. Before the financial crisis, the deficit was less than half of that. I’m not saying that Labour have been doing the right thing, but I will say that looking at the current deficit as a simple percentage figure doesn’t tell the whole story.

    Comment by Chris C — November 13, 2009 @ 1:42 pm

  56. “@ Clunker: As you are like Tony Benn, and have read the Lisbon Treaty, which parts of it do you dislike?” says Adhominem

    Err, that’s the point Ady: don’t ratify it until you’ve read it. It ain’t going no where, so why the rush to ratify? Oh, that’s right: before the PROLES get a chance to read it, it needs to be a done deal. And the Constitution was easy to read, the Lisbon Treaty, allegedly near-identical in outcome, less so.

    Hopefully I answered (more or lessky) that question about reading, perhaps you can answer my questions from earlier: “Why does a simple “free-trade agreement” need aPresident, a Foreign Policy Minister, an Appeals Court, a Privacy Commissioner and Regional Development Agencies?”

    Comment by Clunking Fist — November 16, 2009 @ 12:09 pm

  57. “7%, and the balance sheet is skewed because the bank bailouts. Should see the money that goes toward servicing debts. Before the financial crisis, the deficit was less than half of that.” You’ve forgotten the wonderful PPP’s and their unfunded future liabs.

    “I’m not saying that Labour have been doing the right thing, but I will say that looking at the current deficit as a simple percentage figure doesn’t tell the whole story.” Absolutely, but what other evidence are you putting forward for how wonderful life is for the ordinary Welsh, Scots or Englishman at the mo’?
    The feral beneficiaries that disable ambulances and attck the parameds?
    The high rate of outbound immigration?
    That rapists can be cautioned rather than police having to do any serious paperwork and suffer lower “completeion statistics” (similar to the sick folk here being bumped off waiting lists)?
    That the PM will pick a fight with the mother of a dead soldier over his spelling, let alone whether the dead man had the right equipment for the task?
    That police report a pregnant women to social services as a potentially unfit mother for stripping wallpaper?
    That parliamentarians can still smoke in one of their bars, even though the rest of the country faces a complete indoor ban?
    That it was a deliberate cynical policy to open immigration floodgates just to annoy the Tories and their supporters?
    The list is endless. I thank the stars I left when I did and that I had a down-under bolt-hole.

    Comment by Clunking Fist — November 16, 2009 @ 12:26 pm

  58. Sorry: even though the rest of the country faces a complete indoor ban IN BARS, RESTAURANTS, etc

    Comment by Clunking Fist — November 16, 2009 @ 12:27 pm

  59. Ady, I wonder if the great and good have read the draft text of the Copenhagen climate-change treaty?

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703574604574500580285679074.html

    :^)

    Comment by Clunking Fist — November 16, 2009 @ 6:45 pm

  60. @ Clunker: I hear your concern about bigger governments.
    Even without the EU, most Europeans feel powerless towards their own governments.
    So if Lord Monckton screams “transnational government”, I imagine your additional concern. However, I don’t believe any of Monckton’s scare-mongery.
    Global Warming can only be tackled individually, but those actions must be coordinated (and enforced) globally, otherwise it’s the “free-rider” problem again.

    Comment by Adhominem — November 16, 2009 @ 7:21 pm

  61. You’ve forgotten the wonderful PPP’s and their unfunded future liabs.

    No, they’re on-balance sheet now. They started nearly 20 years ago – they’re reducing their involvement in PFI/PPP because there’s no effective saving to be made, even

    The feral beneficiaries that disable ambulances and attck the parameds?
    The high rate of outbound immigration?
    That rapists can be cautioned rather than police having to do any serious paperwork and suffer lower “completeion statistics” (similar to the sick folk here being bumped off waiting lists)?
    That the PM will pick a fight with the mother of a dead soldier over his spelling, let alone whether the dead man had the right equipment for the task?
    That police report a pregnant women to social services as a potentially unfit mother for stripping wallpaper?
    That parliamentarians can still smoke in one of their bars, even though the rest of the country faces a complete indoor ban?
    That it was a deliberate cynical policy to open immigration floodgates just to annoy the Tories and their supporters?
    The list is endless. I thank the stars I left when I did and that I had a down-under bolt-hole.

    Sorry mate, which part of that is based on reality and which part is based on hysterical nonsense gleamed from the pages of the Daily Mail? ‘Feral beneficiaries’? Immigration floodgates? Really?

    Would you like to take the discussion to the rational, or would you like to pick on individual cases in a country of 60m people and turn to generalisations to try and prove a point about how the entire Union is totally and utterly fucked because a copper fucked up and made the news, or because it’s beyond people’s ability to read to the end of an article where it tells you the actual figures behind the intentionally shocking headline?

    I didn’t leave because the country was fucked – in fact, back there I had a better job, better paid with more responsibilities. I left for entirely personal reasons. It’s hard to find a reliable indictator for the number of people leaving. It’s easy to turn to a lazy, complicit media dragging the entire country down into its sensationalist, reductionist crap.

    Comment by Chris C — November 17, 2009 @ 12:11 am

  62. Chris, me too: “I didn’t leave because the country was fucked – in fact, back there I had a better job, better paid with more responsibilities. I left for entirely personal reasons.” I’d love to have stayed a while longer: there was more money to be made and so many places to visit. But you haven’t provided any anecdotes or evidence that the YooKay is a great place for those who have to grin and bear it. I see the ID acrd is finally launched, hope they know now, how to keep a database secure, LOL!

    And you overlook the chinese water torture effect of all these little intrusions and oppressions.

    Adhominem says “Clunker: I hear your concern about bigger governments. Even without the EU, most Europeans feel powerless towards their own governments.”
    Even more reason not to add another layer of bureaucrats and parliamentarians. I’m still not sure why a mere “trade agreement” needs a whole parliament: when does the Sino-Kiwi parliament come into being, since we have a free trade agreement with China? Members of Sino-Kiwi Parliament (MSKP) , co-located in Auckland and Shanghai?

    “Global Warming can only be tackled individually, but those actions must be coordinated (and enforced) globally, otherwise it’s the “free-rider” problem again.”
    But if only Global Warming were true! I’m sure it’s too early to say our shitty wet spring is due to lack of sun spots, but it doesn’t look good for AGW!
    :^)

    Comment by Clunking Fist — November 17, 2009 @ 12:05 pm

  63. I’d love to have stayed a while longer: there was more money to be made and so many places to visit. But you haven’t provided any anecdotes or evidence that the YooKay is a great place for those who have to grin and bear it. I see the ID acrd is finally launched, hope they know now, how to keep a database secure, LOL!

    And you overlook the chinese water torture effect of all these little intrusions and oppressions.

    Well, no, but I don’t think it’s wise to conflate the state of the government with the state of the country in general. Yes, the former runs the latter, but the truth is that every time Labour have taken a step over the line, they’ve been chastised by the judiciary, by their own party, in select committee and by the media. Hence a declining popularity and an even surer return to a Tory government. Who will introduce a 50% rate of tax (although income tax rates are lower over there than they are here).

    I don’t think it’s detrimental to the state of the UK that these things are in discussion or make it into the papers: in fact, it’s the opposite. Vocal criticism is evidence that people still care, despite horrendous voter turnouts in Euro and locals in June, and evidence of a healthy democracy rather than pretending everything’s okay.

    Good things about the UK? Anecdotal stuff that would appear in the newspapers? That’s harder, because “policeman does job well” or “patient pleased with NHS treatment” doesn’t make the news. But you should know as well as I do that hundreds of thousands of positive things happen for everything negative that makes the Mail.

    By the way, as noted, the EU isn’t just a FTA. That was just the start. It’s about greater cooperation on all levels, not giving up sovereignty. For me, it makes sense for that continent, being so close and having so many different laws, to sync up.

    Comment by Chris C — November 17, 2009 @ 4:01 pm

  64. “but the truth is that every time Labour have taken a step over the line, they’ve been chastised by the judiciary, by their own party, in select committee and by the media”

    The media sat by whilst New Labour broke their promise on a referendum: they said the Lisbon Treaty is not the same as the Constitution> Experts said “not true” whilst the majority of the media looked the other way.

    “although income tax rates are lower over there than they are here” Err, only if you ignore the National Insurance contribution. And VAT is 17.5% to our 12.5% (although not on every item). And there is a compulsory TV licence fee, even if you don’t want to watch Auntie. Oh, and petrol taxes are higher.

    “Vocal criticism is evidence that people still care” the MSM only care about scandel, so the MP expenses thing was HUGE, but seldom reported is what the regional development agencies get up to, what the EU is up to, what Lisbon means to the man on the street. The only real criticism on the big items comes from the blogs.
    http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/
    is a goodie.

    “By the way, as noted, the EU isn’t just a FTA. That was just the start. It’s about greater cooperation on all levels, not giving up sovereignty. For me, it makes sense for that continent, being so close and having so many different laws, to sync up.”
    But they’ll sync up with what the Commissioners want, not the MEPs: they are the Executive, equilavlent to the LABOUR government or the OBAMA Administration.

    Comment by Clunking Fist — November 17, 2009 @ 5:14 pm

  65. The media sat by whilst New Labour broke their promise on a referendum: they said the Lisbon Treaty is not the same as the Constitution> Experts said “not true” whilst the majority of the media looked the other way.

    I’m not sure which country you were living in, but “the media sat by” isn’t true. Not if you were reading the Guardian, the Telegraph, the Mail, the Times, the Mirror, the Sun, or any of them, really. Now they’re turning on Cameron after two of his MEPs stepped down. Just because the government sat on an issue, that doesn’t mean the media ignored it.

    Err, only if you ignore the National Insurance contribution. And VAT is 17.5% to our 12.5% (although not on every item). And there is a compulsory TV licence fee, even if you don’t want to watch Auntie. Oh, and petrol taxes are higher.

    NI contributions is a pension contribution. It’s not a tax, and you can opt out if you want to. You can’t opt out of PAYE. If your home country doesn’t have a DTA, then it’s wise to opt out. But if your home country has a DTA, then the NI contributions are considered toward superannuation in your home country. VAT is also 15% now, and the TV licence is a flat fee. If you don’t own a TV – or if you don’t use it to receive TV signals – then you don’t have to pay it. And you can still access TV on iPlayer or the ITV/C4/C5 equivalent and you’re still exempt. And petrol taxes may be higher, but the UK has something they like to call a “public transportation system”, so the rate of car ownership is much lower.

    the MSM only care about scandel, so the MP expenses thing was HUGE, but seldom reported is what the regional development agencies get up to, what the EU is up to, what Lisbon means to the man on the street. The only real criticism on the big items comes from the blogs.
    http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/
    is a goodie.

    Have you read any of the papers lately? The Mail, the Telegraph and the Times have always played to their audiences by heaping vocal criticism of the large issues on them. Have you read Danny Finkelstein, Hugo Rifkind in the Times, Boris Johnson (Tory London mayor Boris) or Simon Heffer in the Telegraph? Also, you seem to like the RDAs, so did you read the PwC report that said for every £1 invested via the RDAs, there was a average £4.50 return of gross value added to the economy? That’s the kind of return you like.

    But they’ll sync up with what the Commissioners want, not the MEPs: they are the Executive, equilavlent to the LABOUR government or the OBAMA Administration.

    And see my earlier reply to the alleged unstoppable power of the Commission: the vast majority of the legislation and movements drafted by the commission (who come from all 27 member states) come either from the Council – democratically elected officials from the national groupings – or from the floor of the parliament, suggested by MEPs.

    Comment by Chris C — November 18, 2009 @ 11:48 am

  66. “NI contributions is a pension contribution. It’s not a tax, and you can opt out if you want to.”

    Err, it goes into the consolidated fund, and you can only contract out of the SERPS component, which is about 25% of the “stamp” (now called “state second pension”) if you have a stakeholder penion plan. That’s what every kiwi does, allowing you to put more in your stakeholder plan…or spend.

    “Have you read any of the papers lately?”
    Yes, only to read that some of them are finally waking up… only to have a go at the (admittedly evil) Tory leader, likes its ALL his fault.

    Comment by Clunking Fist — November 23, 2009 @ 12:26 pm

  67. “you seem to like the RDAs, so did you read the PwC report that said for every £1 invested via the RDAs, there was a average £4.50 return of gross value added to the economy?”

    Yeah, and BERL says booze costs us $9.5billion with no benefits whatsoever. Who pays the piper calls the tune…

    Comment by Clunking Fist — November 23, 2009 @ 12:27 pm


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