The so-called “mental health day” could become extinct under law changes allowing bosses who suspect a worker of pulling sickies to demand they front up with proof after only one day.
At present, employers must have reasonable grounds to suspect an illness is not genuine to seek a medical certificate before the worker has had three consecutive days off.
However, the change would allow bosses to require staff to provide proof they are really sick from day one. The employer would have to pay the cost of a doctor’s visit.
Not anti-worker, as such: the employer pays for the visit. But the last time I needed a medical certificate was last year when a stomach bug caused me to miss a terms test for an undergraduate paper I took (discrete mathematics). It was midwinter so when I called the doctor’s surgery to make an appointment the earliest he could see me was midway through the next week – by which time I was in perfect health. I very briefly described my symptoms: ‘I had diarrhoea!’ He said ‘I guess I’ll have to take your word for it,’ and wrote me my certificate and charged me fifty dollars. It was all a pointless waste of time and the new law is designed to reproduce this scene tens of thousands of times a year.
Some of the government’s labour market reforms seem sensible – the ability to transfer public holidays and cash up a weeks leave sound pretty good to me – but most of them are solutions to problems we don’t have.
If our economy suffered from an inflexible labour market with industries crippled by industrial action and companies unable to compete internationally because of high costs imposed by collective bargaining then an anti-union policy platform might make some sense. But we have one of the most liberal labour markets in the world and regularly top the international ease of doing business surveys. None of these reforms do anything about the problems we do have: low wages and high worker emigration. If anything they’ll make them worse.
To me it all looks like a negotiated arrangement with the government’s financial supporters – unhappy with the Foreshore and Seabed settlement and furious about the ETS – refusing to open their checkbooks unless they get some material benefits and the PM and his strategists figuring ‘what the hell, we need the money and people who join unions don’t vote for us anyway.’
I don’t know how any of this will play out politically but on an anecdotal level I went to the garden centre yesterday (I’m planting snow peas) and heard two separate groups of people complaining about the fire-at-will provision. It seems to upset people’s sense of fairness. Sure, the sample size is so small it’s meaningless but I’ve never heard anyone talking politics at the garden centre before so maybe that signifies something.
Danyl: It was all a pointless waste of time and the new law is designed to reproduce this scene tens of thousands of times a year.
Agree with that this will not work as you describe, but wonder about the tends of thousands of times. Isn’t the fact that you can demand a certificate enough deterrent? Because that’s what it seems to me about. The fact that you can ask for a certificate, will deter a lot of the spurious sickies.
The easiest would be to have a limited number of sick days. Beyond 5 or so, you pay for them out of your holidays.
Comment by Berend de Boer — July 19, 2010 @ 7:43 am
“The easiest would be to have a limited number of sick days. Beyond 5 or so, you pay for them out of your holidays.”
Yeah! That’ll fuck em! Goddam malingerers with their so-called “influenza”! Why if their standards of personal hygiene are so poor that they contract disease they deserve to pay for the consequences on their own time. Or toughen up and work through it.
Comment by Guy Smiley — July 19, 2010 @ 7:53 am
“To me it all looks like a negotiated arrangement with the government’s financial supporters”
The setting in which they announced it makes this seem highly likely. Party conference time? better tickle up the donors…
Comment by nommopilot — July 19, 2010 @ 7:53 am
“Or toughen up and work through it.”
Yeah they should be at work sharing their disease not keeping it to themselves at home. selfish b**tards
Comment by nommopilot — July 19, 2010 @ 7:55 am
Sick leave is a tricky policy. If someone gets influenza they can be sick for two weeks. If you punish them by docking their holiday pay then they’ll just come into the office, do a terrible job and infect everyone else.
I get unlimited sick leave. If I don’t come in and do my job then all my projects get behind schedule and the work just piles up and I have to work longer days, weekends etc so it’s basically impossible for me to abuse this privilege. Obviously that doesn’t work for all types of jobs though.
A company I worked for in France gave people 7 days sick leave a year and then paid them out 1.25 salary a day for any remaining days at the end of the year. So you have the days there but a financial incentive not to use them.
Comment by danylmc — July 19, 2010 @ 7:59 am
“better tickle up the donors…”
yup. this one’s a lot of smoke and mirrors.
another side note: saw some immigration figures the other day outlining who is moving to Oz. clue – not highly skilled workers. it appears we have a ‘brawn drain” not “brain drain”. and it’s the former this type of legislation will effect most.
Comment by che tibby — July 19, 2010 @ 8:01 am
My problem with the leave reform revolves around the possibility of workers being pressurized by employers into forgoing a weeks leave. Parents don’t seem to spend enough time with their kids as it is and juggling leave around school holidays would become even more of an expensive nightmare than it already is. If your earning a low wage then i’d suggest that in a lot of cases the extra time off has much more value than the potential financial gain.
Comment by The Fox — July 19, 2010 @ 8:02 am
The easiest would be to have a limited number of sick days. Beyond 5 or so, you pay for them out of your holidays.
That’s the law now.
You get five sick days after working somewhere for six months. And another five each year after that. You’re allowed to carry over up to 15 days to later years, but you’re not entitled to (an average of) more than five days a year. If you’re trying to go beyond your five day entitlement, you may take annual holidays.
Comment by Graeme Edgeler — July 19, 2010 @ 8:08 am
Berend: The easiest would be to have a limited number of sick days. Beyond 5 or so, you pay for them out of your holidays.
Yeah, such a great idea that it’s what current legislation provides.
Well, until as Guy says you get knocked out by the flu for a week and use up all your sick leave in one go.
Comment by Donald Gordon — July 19, 2010 @ 8:13 am
another side note: saw some immigration figures the other day outlining who is moving to Oz.
Where pleez
Comment by Stephen — July 19, 2010 @ 8:42 am
Honestly if someone has a bad headache or an actual case of the squits, which is enough to knock them out for a day, what is the point. Sure everyone takes a sickie every so often but what is the employer going to do, charge around to the persons house and make them go to the doctor?
Comment by max — July 19, 2010 @ 8:53 am
luckily most employers will probably be too cheap to pay for a visit to the doctor’s. Personally I think if your employer has time to micro-manage your health they aren’t working hard enough…
Comment by nommopilot — July 19, 2010 @ 9:19 am
@stephen not sure they’re published yet, but you could look on the DOL/Immigration website.
Comment by che tibby — July 19, 2010 @ 9:20 am
Sure everyone takes a sickie every so often but what is the employer going to do, charge around to the persons house and make them go to the doctor?
I think this is a symptom of the out of touch leadership Brian Easton mentioned in his column. I’m not sure what kind of GPs Key and Joyce use but I’m pretty sure they don’t call them on a Monday morning and get told the doctor can see them Friday lunchtime – so a policy that increased congestion in GP surgeries might not seem as silly to them as it does to the rest of us.
Comment by danylmc — July 19, 2010 @ 9:38 am
The government is about to discover that more draconian laws are always welcomed by our smug middle class, as long as they don’t apply to them.
Comment by Sanctuary — July 19, 2010 @ 9:41 am
“increased congestion in GP surgeries”
yes I have to be pretty badly congested before I’ll brave the congestion of the GP waiting rooms…
Comment by nommopilot — July 19, 2010 @ 9:44 am
Yeah, it is symptomatic of how out of touch these idiot Tories are!
GP’s surgeries in New Zealand are heavily congested; in some areas of NZ it’s hard to get an appointment even
if you’ve quite something significant going on.
Comment by The Big Dog — July 19, 2010 @ 10:00 am
I can tell a true story about sick leave at the large Australian corporate I used to work for. We were on an unionised, Australia contract, and it included, believe it or not, an unlimited sick leave clause. After a few years we were merged and got a Kiwi management team. The bean counters who are the people actually run NZ companies didn’t like the unlimited sick leave one little bit, “We have an unlimited liabilty” they cried. “We can’t quantify the cost of something that is unlimited!” said the bean counters, who it seems are petrified of their own shadows.
So of course, they told us we would be losing this from our contracts. So we did the sums, and discovered absenteeism in our team was well BELOW both the company and national the average. Que meeting with one of those over-promoted, stupid women that populate corporate HR departments everywhere. We asked why we were losing a perk we weren’t abusing but made us feel good and the answer was – and I swear to God this is true – was “If you are not using it, you don’t need it”.
NZ management’s mentality summed up right there.
Comment by Sanctuary — July 19, 2010 @ 10:12 am
Ha, wittering media sponges at a garden centre are hardly representative of nz in general (maybe representative of rest home residents though).
Comment by har — July 19, 2010 @ 10:21 am
Great story S. ‘Que meeting with one of those over-promoted, stupid women that populate corporate HR departments everywhere.’!
Comment by The Big Dog — July 19, 2010 @ 10:21 am
You’re allowed to carry over up to 15 days to later years,
Graeme, so how come I’ve been able to carry over all of my unused sick days for the 11 years I’ve been working? I’ve got a good backlog which makes for nice kind of health insurance in case I ever get really sick. *touch wood*
Comment by Ataahua — July 19, 2010 @ 10:23 am
When I worked as a manager, dealing with the early morning sickie calls would bring out my inner fascist: “You can reach the phone? How sick are you?”
Telling the staff I just had to be nasty because it was the law would have made my job fun for a day or two, then sheer hell after that. How can anybody think this will work? Irony alert: it’s got “red tape” and “ivory tower” written all over it.
If National really do want to lose the election, this is their best idea yet.
Comment by sammy — July 19, 2010 @ 10:31 am
How can anybody think this will work? Irony alert: it’s got “red tape” and “ivory tower” written all over it.
By not making it mandatory those employers who will be put out don’t have to do it. And most won’t.
Graeme, so how come I’ve been able to carry over all of my unused sick days for the 11 years I’ve been working? I’ve got a good backlog which makes for nice kind of health insurance in case I ever get really sick. *touch wood*
Ataahua – everyone is allowed to carry over 15 days. There’s nothing prohibiting you and your employer from agreeing that you’ll be able to carry over more.
Employment law is about minimum entitlements. You’re not entitled to more than the minimum wage either, but most people seem to get more.
Comment by Graeme Edgeler — July 19, 2010 @ 10:59 am
Few things are more annoying in a small office than the employee who takes off 20 additional days a year to get over a “bug”. Its done at just below the point where you will blow up and either create a big fuss or sack the person. At least a requirement for a docs certificate provides some formality that may help bring the issue to a conclusion one way or the other.
JC
Comment by JC — July 19, 2010 @ 11:21 am
At least a requirement for a docs certificate provides some formality that may help bring the issue to a conclusion one way or the other.
A doctor’s certificate can already be required for any period where an employee takes off more than two days’ sick leave.
Comment by Graeme Edgeler — July 19, 2010 @ 11:30 am
Yes, JC, but as Danyl points out, in the real world you often can’t get an appointment with a GP for, at best, 3-4 days. Then if you’ve had a bout of food poisoning, or a crippling migraine, etc, there are no symptoms left for the doctor to observe, and they either have to take your word for it, or decline a medical certificate. Not to mention creating even longer waits to see the GP when all the appointments are taken up with sickness beneficiaries proving they’re still sick or formerly food poisoned workers telling the doctor they were sick 3 days ago.
Comment by Eddie C — July 19, 2010 @ 11:32 am
JC, a couple of sickies a month, absent any ongoing medical condition which might justify them, would in my experience provide the “reasonable grounds” needed to request a medical certificate of an employee. I’ve certainly requested such in the past. No need to make a big fuss or sack the person; just reimburse reasonable costs (bus fare/parking and consultation fee, for instance) and abide by what the doctor says. If they’re sick, they’re sick.
So I don’t see what needs changing here: employers and managers who have a good relationship with their staff can already get the same result without opening the system up to abuse by bad employers and managers who, on the day this law comes into force, will implement policies stating that a medical certificate is required for all sick leave.
L
Comment by Lew — July 19, 2010 @ 11:36 am
Thanks Graeme – I wondered if your information was about minimum entitlements but I didn’t want to assume.
Comment by Ataahua — July 19, 2010 @ 11:42 am
“in the real world you often can’t get an appointment with a GP for, at best, 3-4 days”
which means that if you’ve had a 24 hour thing you’ll have had 2 days back at work and then probably have to take more time off or skip a lunchbreak to attend the appointment. ridiculous
Comment by nommopilot — July 19, 2010 @ 11:42 am
I see potential to use this to get a doctor’s appointment paid for by your employer when you’re sick. depending on the nature of the illness, that may be useful.
Comment by kahikatea — July 19, 2010 @ 11:55 am
@nommopilot – yeah, and as Lew said, if your employer has a well-founded reason to suspect that you’re not genuinely sick they can already make you go get a medical cert! Generalising that to all absences for sickness is pure ideology… no surprise it was announced at their conference.
Politics isn’t about rational policy.
Comment by Eddie C — July 19, 2010 @ 12:06 pm
I see potential to use this to get a doctor’s appointment paid for by your employer when you’re sick.
How true. ‘Employers to fund doctor vists!’ Imagine the outrage from Business NZ etc if Labour bought it in. I really don’t think they thought this one through.
Comment by danylmc — July 19, 2010 @ 12:06 pm
Wonder what PHOs will think about funding all these extra visits?
I wonder if they can compel you to use a company doctor rather than your own? I suspect not on human rights grounds, but that may resolve the waiting period issue.
I bet most sensible employers will ignore this. But they may have it in their pocket for those who regularly have Mondays and Fridays off.
Comment by insider — July 19, 2010 @ 12:08 pm
Where do you all live in New Zealand in having to wait three or four days to get to see your GP? I live in east Auckland and go somewhere where there are (I think) either three or four GPs and in all the years I have been going there (15+) I have always been able to see my GP on the day I rang.
Comment by radar — July 19, 2010 @ 12:24 pm
insider, when the employer is paying for it, I believe they can specify which doctor you’re to see. A moot point, since virtually no employers would have in-house doctors, but I know that in other countries it’s standard practice to specify this. There’s been some controversy in Australia recently over the relative willingness of company-approved doctors to certify workers as “fit to return to work” after an injury or illness, or even “fit to return to limited duties” before they’re entirely recovered.
This will also interact in interesting ways with the ACC regime, in particular now that employers are being
punished for failing to keep a clean sheetrewarded for running a safe workplace.L
Comment by Lew — July 19, 2010 @ 12:25 pm
Where do you all live in New Zealand in having to wait three or four days to get to see your GP?
It’s been a widespread phenonmenon for a couple of years, since Labour subsidised the cost of GP visits without doing anything to increase the number of GPs.
Comment by danylmc — July 19, 2010 @ 12:34 pm
Where did Key say that employers would pay for the doctor’s visit?
Comment by Me — July 19, 2010 @ 12:47 pm
It’s been a widespread phenonmenon for a couple of years, since Labour subsidised the cost of GP visits without doing anything to increase the number of GPs.
Bull’s wool.
Comment by Galeandra — July 19, 2010 @ 1:04 pm
Me – there’s a reference here: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3930989/Bid-to-kill-one-day-sickies
It also accords with current practice, where for short absences an employer can, on reasonable grounds, already require an employee to get a note from their doctor at the employer’s expense.
Comment by Graeme Edgeler — July 19, 2010 @ 1:08 pm
Oh, that’s not so bad then – I thought the worker would have to pay the $60 or whatever it costs these days.
Comment by Me — July 19, 2010 @ 1:11 pm
There are a lot of walk-in A&E clinics around (White Cross etc) which don’t do appointments, so all you have to do is hang around for a while. They always cost at least double what a regular doctor does, but if your boss is paying, why not?
Comment by Helenalex — July 19, 2010 @ 1:18 pm
Graeme, Eddie and Lew, all fair points but I think you know the type of employee I’m talking about. Unable to build annual leave, throws a sickie the odd Monday, payday, after a sports or cultural event of his interest and most frustrating, on those days when there’s some tedious but essential job to do. Usually there’s a pattern to the absences.
Requiring this guy to get a docs certificate is at least something you can do about it.. and I agree with others, you generally have the family doc, the walk in medical centre and outpatients as options for near immediate attention.
JC
Comment by JC — July 19, 2010 @ 3:03 pm
JC, I know the type of employee all too well. The point is that if there’s a pattern, or even if there’s no pattern but absences are unexplained and frequent, that is grounds to require a medcert on day one. There’s no need for a law change to make this work. Competent bosses do it already.
L
Comment by Lew — July 19, 2010 @ 3:23 pm
Well it’s about time they interviewed someone who’d been fired under the 90 day law. Appears to have been handled badly, and now someone has gone from a good job, to a uh ‘exciting’ job to no job:
Fair enough he doesn’t want to discuss it with the media, but it doesn’t look like they even told her. While helping people get jobs, this is not going to make some people keen to switch jobs (as Danyl implied in a previous post).
Comment by Stephen — July 19, 2010 @ 3:45 pm
Lew,
With over 200,000 small businesses operating here, the chances of “competent bosses” running them all is remote; yet many if not most are productive enterprises. Too often these are businesses when ignorance of process is the norm and they are easily persuaded that they have few rights in the employee relationship.. and the mediation and Employment Court process shows they have a reasonable fear. This new law will help them.
JC
Comment by JC — July 19, 2010 @ 4:11 pm
“…With over 200,000 small businesses operating here, the chances of “competent bosses” running them all is remote; yet many if not most are productive enterprises. Too often these are businesses when ignorance of process is the norm and they are easily persuaded that they have few rights in the employee relationship.. and the mediation and Employment Court process shows they have a reasonable fear. This new law will help them…”
What sort of fuckery is this comment?
What sort of fucked up logic IS that??? Some employers are incompetent, therefore the state shall shield them from the consequences of their stupidity – and to hell with the victims of their idiocy, for no such similar logic should be allowed to contaminate their dealing with their employees, oh no sireeee….
Comment by Sanctuary — July 19, 2010 @ 4:28 pm
People already often turn up at work with contagious sniffles etc. already, this is just going to add more. It will make workplaces one of the best sources for healthy workers to catch contagious illnesses.
What about the employment contracts that allow illness in close family and dependents – will employers pay for their doctor’s examination?. More likely, employers will now try to exclude such people from contracts.
Bizarre.
Comment by Bruce Hamilton — July 19, 2010 @ 5:06 pm
‘Employers to fund doctor vists!’ Imagine the outrage from Business NZ etc if Labour bought it in.
Unintended consequences are only what happen to left-wing policies. This is simply the market at work. Or something.
Comment by garethw — July 19, 2010 @ 5:20 pm
“What sort of fuckery is this comment?”
Sanct, many small bsuinesses muddle from year to year, satifying their customers needs, paying the employees wages and leaving enough left over to fed the business owner. That’s the beauty of business.
ALthough I can’t agree with “This new law will help them”.
“Employers to fund doctor vists!’ Imagine the outrage from Business NZ etc if Labour bought it in.”
That’s gold.
Comment by Clunking Fist — July 19, 2010 @ 6:23 pm
JC: “With over 200,000 small businesses operating here, the chances of “competent bosses” running them all is remote; yet many if not most are productive enterprises. Too often these are businesses when ignorance of process is the norm and they are easily persuaded that they have few rights in the employee relationship.. and the mediation and Employment Court process shows they have a reasonable fear. This new law will help them.”
Back in my student days, I worked on checkout in a couple of places. People often threw sickies, as you’d expect given the job and the fact that a lot of college and uni students are employed to do it. If you called in sick, you were not paid unless you provided a medical certificate for that day, for just one day off sick. Even if you went into work, but had to leave because you were so unwell. Even though the law says you can’t require a medical certificate for one day, without reasonable cause. It’s not enough that other people often throw sickies. But because no one ever questioned it, they got away with it.
It’s these sort of workers that will be affected. People in low skilled, low paid jobs, who don’t understand their rights and who get taken advantage of very easily. And these are also the industries in which employers would most likely want to take advantage of the proposed law.
It’s the employer that has all the power and employment laws should be there to protect employees of incompetent employers, not look after incompetent employers.
Besides, it’s just generally bad policy for the reason everyone else has pointed out – congestion in the medical centres.
Comment by Karyn — July 19, 2010 @ 7:43 pm
If you have to wait 3-4 days to get your appointment, I guess you could keep a sample of your diarrhoea
Comment by Me — July 19, 2010 @ 8:31 pm
A medical certificate for 1 sick day is ludicrous. It currently is 3 consecutive sick days, whereby the employee has to go to the Doctor at their own expense and get a medical certificate, which is fair. The ones that feign sickness all the time end up having 3 consecutive days off sooner or later, so it will come back to bite them anyway.
I guess I’m against this because the employer can single out those that he doesn’t like to have to go through the rigmarole of seeing a Doctor, whom may or may not write out a medical certificate even if the employee has had a sickness.
I would like to see the Government spending their time introducing legislation which makes work conditions fair for everyone. I recently came from a work situation where I was bullied out of my job because of my sexual orientation. Another employee got to keep his job even after he spat in a middle-aged woman’s face without provocation and spilled hot coffee over a temp worker. I had a dispute with the Manager about this. I said that they wouldn’t keep me there if I had done that. He asserted that I would have got treated the same, but then compounded his folly by stating that the offender’s father (who also works at the company) pleaded for the offender to be reinstated. ‘What about those of us who don’t have a father that works here?’ I thought bitterly, biting my tongue.
Comment by Troy — July 20, 2010 @ 10:53 am
Karyn, you missed an opportunity for your union to do some work for you. When I was a young lad, flippin burgers at McDonalds, we had an incident, the union resoved it. What do you pay them for?
Comment by Clunking Fist — July 20, 2010 @ 1:40 pm
Anyone know where to source figures for absentee MPs this year? Is there any transperancy for this? I know in the States there was a bit of fuss made around the number of holidays Captain W Bush took. Any stats here?
Comment by MCRAD — July 20, 2010 @ 4:13 pm
Clunking Fist, there was no union presence at either of the stores. No one I worked with was a member of a union. I only knew there was a relevant union because my mother worked for the PSA…
Comment by Karyn — July 20, 2010 @ 6:07 pm
“I only knew there was a relevant union because my mother worked for the PSA…”
What do kids learn these days? Crikey, maybe the left-wing, feminist, takeover of our schools is not yet complete.
MCRAD:
http://theyworkforyou.co.nz/
But I haven’t found the holidays yet.
Comment by Clunking Fist — July 20, 2010 @ 6:10 pm
Oops, I hadn’t visited since last year, and it appears they are not keeping the site up to date.
Comment by Clunking Fist — July 20, 2010 @ 6:14 pm
Thanks Fist. Hard info to track down. Thought I might be at least be able to easily find how many MPs were present to vote etc.
Comment by MCRAD — July 20, 2010 @ 7:34 pm
It is very simple.
Employers have rights.
Employees have none.
Employers are never wrong.
You think this is bad?
Wait and see what the Nats trot out in their second term.
Comment by peterlepaysan — July 20, 2010 @ 8:34 pm