The Dim-Post

July 24, 2011

Sounds familiar

Filed under: general news — danylmc @ 10:24 pm

The lunatic is all idée fixe, and whatever he comes across confirms his lunacy. You can tell him by the liberties he takes with common sense, by his flashes of inspiration, and by the fact that sooner or later he brings up the Templars.

- Umberto Eco. Foucault’s Pendulum

It’s a cheap shot to smear political movements by the actions of their extremists – but watching the video posted by right-wing anti-Islamic zealot and self-identified Knight Templar Anders Behring Breivik before he carried out his terrorist attacks, I can’t help but feel unnerved by the fact that I’ve seen the exact same images and cartoons on various right-wing blogs in New Zealand.

The fantasy that the left are secret Marxists in league with Islamic fundamentalists to destroy western civilisation enjoys a surprising amount of support for a doctrine that makes no fucking sense whatsoever. Ian Wishart and former ACT Party Vice-President Trevor Louden are probably its most prominent champions – although I believe they are amusing rather than dangerous.

Breivik’s plan seems to have been the destruction of the political left in Norway, by blowing up the current generation of left-wing politicians with a car-bomb in central Oslo and then murdering their next generation at their youth camp. The second phase of his plan was more successful, but I’m not sure it will have the impact on Norway’s domestic politics that Breivik intended. I think political parties function similarly to revolutionary movements – other capable people will step forward and replace those he killed.

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141 Comments »

  1. Knowing nothing about the inner workings of Narwegian politics I predict a landslide for Labour at the next election, and probably the one after that.

    Comment by Leg Break — July 24, 2011 @ 10:29 pm

  2. I wonder how much the unregulated Internet plays in the feeding the fantasies and providing the information required to carry out such terrible crimes. So many beautiful young people, gunned down due at least (in my view) in part to the atmosphere of Internet paranoia that Wishart are Loudon contribute to in their own liitle way.

    You only have to watch ten minutes of the Goebbels like paranoid harangues of Glenn Beck to know he is a manevolent and dangerous demagogue, and this effect is magnified many times through thousands of chat rooms and forums.

    Maybe the time has come to shut down the online networks that fed and enabled this maniacs paranoia.

    Comment by Sanctuary — July 24, 2011 @ 10:39 pm

  3. It would be nice to think that horrors like this massacre can jolt people into an Alec Guinness / River Kwai realization … “My God, what have I done?”.

    I had a quick look at Kiwiblog to see if this was happening – but of course it isn’t. The first rule of the zealot is to find an angle that fits the fixed world view, and the favourite seemed to be: more guns would have saved lives. Blame the state-lefties who restrict them.

    Of course, this was in the spiralling insanity of the comments, not DPF’s own reasonable post. You have to wonder, though – at what point does the landlord take some responsibility for the drunkards in his tavern?

    (and yes, that does apply to all other blogs too, across the spectrum …)

    Comment by sammy — July 24, 2011 @ 11:07 pm

  4. I am not suggesting that the idea left wing politicans are aligned with Muslim extremists in a secret plot to overtake the world makes any sense whatsoever. But, I wonder if it might make more sense to a crazy person if they lived in Europe which has quite high immigration from the Middle East and (I believe) that liberal political parties in the EU generally tend to have more open immigration policies…

    Comment by Amy — July 24, 2011 @ 11:15 pm

  5. I know it was a late-in-the-evening typo but “manevolent:” from Sanctuary at 10:39pm is a gem.

    May we recycle it?:

    Comment by Stephen Stratford — July 24, 2011 @ 11:17 pm

  6. From the point of view of a white supremecist (which I’m not since I can’t even spell it) who defines a Muslim extremist as anyone who wears a towel on his head there probably is a conspiracy between the Muslims and left wing politicians to take over the world, and they are doing quite well, thank goodness.

    Comment by Roger Parkinson — July 24, 2011 @ 11:22 pm

  7. @Stephen Stratford – I bame my iPad.

    Comment by Sanctuary — July 24, 2011 @ 11:28 pm

  8. Amy, bear in mind that when talking about European politics, the word “liberal” when used to describe a political party has a different meaning to what it does in the USA and (sigh) increasingly, here.

    Comment by Hugh — July 25, 2011 @ 12:39 am

  9. Timothy McVeigh, David Copeland, and now Anders Breivik. When you ask the likes of Michelle Malkin about these guys, the typical response is, “No true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.” Or, “if Norway hadn’t let in all those ragheads, Breivik wouldn’t have blown shit up!”

    Comment by DeepRed — July 25, 2011 @ 1:20 am

  10. Anders Breivik wanted to foster a right-wing “revolution” by mercilessly shooting and killing innocent young people, and by setting off a car bomb in central Oslo. He was obviously deluded in thinking that Norwegians would follow his cause, because it seems that they’ve become quite defiant in defending their openness and tolerance.

    Comment by Dan Burt — July 25, 2011 @ 1:41 am

  11. And on cue Pavlovs dogs appea

    Comment by will — July 25, 2011 @ 8:14 am

  12. And on cue Pavlovs dogs appear

    Comment by will — July 25, 2011 @ 8:14 am

  13. The luminaries at Gates of Vienna, Crusader Rabbit, Jihadwatch et al are, of course, of the view that this is their Reichstag fire, and by God they’re angry (ie operating normally). I would normally find that funny, but in the circumstances…

    Comment by Guy Smiley — July 25, 2011 @ 8:23 am

  14. “Maybe the time has come to shut down the online networks that fed and enabled this maniacs paranoia.”

    How far would you take that? This isn’t just a looney right problem, here in New Zealand there is repeat stoking of political fires, with accelerants, even from the supposed centre left. On the Standard yesterday someone told me how he hated the right and John Key.

    One of the biggest problems online in New Zealand is deceit and gutlessness through anonymity. This has been prominent over the weekend with the climate of deception at The Standard.

    They’re not the only offenders but probably the most prominent and persistent.

    Comment by Pete George — July 25, 2011 @ 8:45 am

  15. I can’t help but feel unnerved by the fact that I’ve seen the exact same images and cartoons on various right-wing blogs in New Zealand.

    [citation needed]

    /not being a smart arse, but a couple of citations would make your argument stronger.

    //before the obligatory “do your own research, you lazy poster” retort, it’s not me making the unsupported assertion.

    Comment by Rick Rowling — July 25, 2011 @ 8:49 am

  16. Oh, yes, it’s a pity that Redbaiter has stopped updating his blog, because I would have liked to see his take on it. I’m a big fan of Crusader Rabbit’s theory that this was a false-flag operation planned by Marxists and Muslims in order to discredit nationalists. One of the pieces of supporting evidence is that Breivik gave himself up to the police when they came, instead of attempting to escape; this kind of “suicide mission” demonstrates an “Islamic mindset” rather than a “Western mindset”.

    Comment by derp de derp — July 25, 2011 @ 8:50 am

  17. @guy smiley – that post at crusader rabbit is a perfect example of how the Internet enables a narrative denial and feeds the paranoia of certain individuals. How batshit crazy do you have to be to rapidly convince yourself that the massacre of almost one hundred teenagers at a Labour party camp by an extremist right winger is in fact a plot to persecute you and like minded right wingers?

    To often the internet allows the border line ( or full blown) mentally I’ll to hide behind a political label, and claim free speech protects their lunatic raving online.

    To my mind, the police have to start taking these loons like the “Nemisis” at crusader rabbit seriously. A visit, search and a little talk is well in order.

    Comment by Sanctuary — July 25, 2011 @ 9:01 am

  18. [citation needed]

    You can’t google image content the same way you can google words, and I don’t feel like trawling through thousands of posts on right-wing blogs to find the right links. But if you watch the video and then spend a couple minutes checking out sites like NZ Conservative, Crusader Rabbit, No Minister and Trevor Louden you’ll get the picture.

    Comment by danylmc — July 25, 2011 @ 9:03 am

  19. Oh ffs, Sanctuary.

    You want the police to conduct searches of peoples’ homes because you believe they are “borderline (or full blown) mentally ill”? SERIOUSLY? Based on what (alleged) breach of the law?

    And then you wonder why “the right” claims that “the left” are a bunch of authoritarian-minded arseholes who seek to use the power of the state to crush any dissenting voices …!

    Comment by Grassed Up — July 25, 2011 @ 9:07 am

  20. Although, you can google image search blogs by name. So here’s one image from the video on the Crusader Rabbit site:
    http://falfn.com/CrusaderRabbit/?p=1913

    Comment by danylmc — July 25, 2011 @ 9:10 am

  21. While we’re discussing crazy, regular Dimpost visitor James (the actual one) contributed this gem to the discussion over at kiwiblog yesterday:

    “Awww is Andrew Geddis Having a cry? Fuck you you bed-wetting, pussy whipped cunt. (yeah yeah , demerits…whatever DPF….out and proud) but I am happy to spend them).You are still a gutless shit and your family is ill served by your cowardly fagottness”

    Turns out he’s not just odd, he’s actually a bit of a prick. Even dpf felt moved to kick him off his site for a fortnight. Something to remember next time he shows up here, perhaps …

    Comment by Grassed Up — July 25, 2011 @ 9:13 am

  22. Given Europe’s violent history, only really somewhat generally suppressed since the war by the rapidly failing social democratic model, have thought that Christians with their better access to education & science would make far worse terrorists than Moslems.

    The death toll in the former Yugoslavia is unknown. The majority of the killing carried out along ethnic religious lines. But Christian killings in the former Yugoslavia would pale anything committed in the Middle East since the collapse of Communism including the liberation of Iraq.

    Overall there is a far greater chance of a dirty nuke going off in Mecca or Medina than Hamburg or San Francisco.

    Comment by Simon — July 25, 2011 @ 9:14 am

  23. @grassed up – don’t give me that horse shit. The police in Norway say this guy “came out of nowhere”, only he didn’t, did he? He left all sorts of screeds on the Internet ranting about plots and Islam. We’ve got to start taking the millennialist paranoia of the likes of Loudon and crusader rabbit seriously, because the internet trail from there is how the police will find the guys collecting the fertilizer and the guns.

    Comment by Sanctuary — July 25, 2011 @ 9:23 am

  24. @ Pete George

    Your still banging the false equivalence drum, ‘Both sides do it’, I read the thread you mention and yes the guy hates Key and ‘would give him the fingers’. Which is exactly the same as the usual comments on Kiwiblog calling for Helen Clark to be burnt cause she is a witch, shot and all lefties being scum and other eliminationist rhetoric used. They are so far apart it is ridiculous to try and claim that the left and right are one and the same with anonymous commenter’s.

    In the Late 60’s and early 70’s it was the Left that used violence to further political causes, the left used rigid ideological and emotionally based arguments and the Right used Logic and research. From the Late 80’s to today the left renounced violence and turned toward Empirical evidence to argue for change in politics. The Right has turned to Faith based ideological arguments, case in point, tax cuts turbo charging the economy.

    But you keep pretending that unhinged Right, and a fictional and Unreasonable ‘they are just as bad’ Left are the same and that possibly in your imaginary unbiased mind, the gutless offenders are worse than the insane poo flinging right, while you claim to be above it all with you fantasy land middle ground between the two.

    /rant

    Comment by andy (the other one) — July 25, 2011 @ 9:26 am

  25. Whilst the Internet has allowed every deranged person to post their perceptions, the onus is on readers to discern how the poster’s reality coincides/conflicts with their own. It’s time consuming and usually futile to engage with obsessives, so most readers will move on, and avoid such cul-de-sacs. Nutters exist, so the naive and youthful have to learn how to to identify such people.

    The internet may even make it easier for intelligence agencies to monitor/infiltrate the vocal groups producing deranged rantings, but the most dangerous smart and paranoid terrorists will keep a low profile. Today’s task, identify the police/intelligence service agents provocateurs commenting here….

    Rather than pursue the raving and and ranting on tragic sites, and visiting the owners/posters, police should focus on important tasks, like catching major criminals and learning effective mine rescue management.

    Comment by Bruce Hamilton — July 25, 2011 @ 9:38 am

  26. Sure, Sanctuary.

    There’s even people on the internet advocating the police conduct mass searches of peoples’ homes based on no more than the belief that what they are saying is dangerous. All sorts of nutters out there …

    Comment by Grassed Up — July 25, 2011 @ 9:53 am

  27. The problem with statements like:

    The fantasy that the left are secret Marxists in league with Islamic fundamentalists to destroy western civilisation enjoys a surprising amount of support for a doctrine that makes no fucking sense whatsoever.

    Is that you’re somewhat undermined by stuff like the British Labour party’s deliberate policy of mass immigration to “make the UK more multi-cultural” and thereby tilt the electorate in their favour (citation: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html)

    If you deliberately “rub (enough) peoples’ noses in diversity”, you’re going to create a spectrum of reactions from frustrated angry blog posts right up to running around shooting innocent people.

    Comment by James Stephenson — July 25, 2011 @ 9:58 am

  28. this one will get those flagging page hit numbers back up

    Comment by will — July 25, 2011 @ 10:00 am

  29. andy (the other one) – I’m not pretending anything, and I think I’m confronting reality more than you are.

    There is a lot of crap political discourse in New Zealand, with rancour and deceit and dishonesty being prominent across the spectrum. Speaking up about it may make a difference, quietly accepting it is as the way we do politics condemns us to staying in the shit.

    Comment by Pete George — July 25, 2011 @ 10:07 am

  30. Bruce – I think your argument is just plain wrong both in the general and the particular. We now all know that Breivik didn’t come from nowhere – he posted a chilling manifesto online. If the likes of the obnoxious James had a Gestetner machine instead of the internet and he printed off hundreds of pamphlets containing the sort of abusive and eliminationist language then stuffed them through letterboxes in his neighbourhood the police would take an interest in the author. Anyone who has had any dealings whatsoever with Loudon and the ZAP nutters know they are seriously wierd, and IMHO only one literalist follower away from potentially being a killer cult.

    These people need to be taken more seriously because before the internet they would have been the sort of stock fringe merchant trouble makers the police would regularly have files on for abusing minorities, the authorities, etc anyway. Now they’ve moved online. That should not make them any less of interest to the police and in terms of an enabling feedback loop it certainly makes some of them potentially way more dangerous to society.

    Comment by Sanctuary — July 25, 2011 @ 10:12 am

  31. Santuary makes a good point – it’s difficult to deal with on a policing behaviour, McCarthy should be kept in mind, but encouragement of or a lack of confronting of political violence on blogs could potential contribute to some nut deciding to go as far as acting out like Breivik.

    Comment by Pete George — July 25, 2011 @ 10:19 am

  32. Slater sings from the same songbook as the manifesto. “There is how­ever an issue when cul­tures clash and none clash more so than Islam and West­ern cul­ture. Unfor­tu­nately with our lib­eral ideals together with appease­ment and fear of upset­ting psy­chos we have let mus­lim immi­gra­tion run amok so to speak.” http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/index.php/2011/01/integration-issues/

    The piles of posts about guns and hunting are doubly unnerving.

    Comment by taranaki — July 25, 2011 @ 10:41 am

  33. from what we know so far had it been a centre-right govt it would have been centre-right politicians and and young people targeted. They would have been seen as equally part of the Grand Plot.

    Comment by NeilM — July 25, 2011 @ 10:41 am

  34. For a bit of perspective, I seem to recall an organised bunch of lefties not just talking about this stuff on blogs but actually running around with real guns in the forest, and making back street exchanges of illegal weapons.

    Of course they made a film about them and many on the extreme left seem to consider them martyrs. (hmm maybe that’s the islamo link we’ve been looking for…)

    Good to know some agree with nipping this stuff in the bud

    Comment by insider — July 25, 2011 @ 11:29 am

  35. For a bit of perspective, I seem to recall an organised bunch of lefties not just talking about this stuff on blogs but actually running around with real guns in the forest, and making back street exchanges of illegal weapons.

    Actually them see pretty similar to Breivik, ie ethnic nationalists.

    Comment by danylmc — July 25, 2011 @ 11:33 am

  36. Further proof that any “war” in play is between open, tolerant, liberal societies and close-minded, reactionary, fundamentalism. That fundamentalism comes in many forms…

    Comment by garethw — July 25, 2011 @ 11:50 am

  37. I can’t help but feel unnerved by the fact that I’ve seen the exact same images and cartoons on various right-wing blogs in New Zealand.

    The videos are the least of it. A few quotes from Crusader Rabbit:

    “The enemies hearts and minds can be won with half an ounce of lead at 2000fps.”

    “1,570,000,000 (Muslims) ……….that’s a lot of lead.” “or a few kilograms of plutonium….”

    “The recommended treatment is to inject the sufferer behind the left ear with a small amount of lead at very high velocity.”

    Still, Redbaiter posts there so presumably it’s all talk and no action.

    Comment by Psycho Milt — July 25, 2011 @ 12:27 pm

  38. Kaczynski, McVeigh, Loughner, Breivik… All males.

    Comment by NeilM — July 25, 2011 @ 12:29 pm

  39. Neil M wrote: “from what we know so far had it been a centre-right govt it would have been centre-right politicians and and young people targeted. They would have been seen as equally part of the Grand Plot.”

    I’m sure you’re right. This guy’s brand of ‘right-wing’ ideology has as little in common with John Key’s values as Marxism has with Helen Clark’s values.

    Comment by Kahikatea — July 25, 2011 @ 12:49 pm

  40. Sanctuary,

    So I’m wrong, such is life. Please don’t report my failure to recognise your omniscience to the NZ police.

    There was an interview on Radio NZ this morning with a political activist who had previously met Breivik several times at political events and said he was quiet and didn’t come across as a nutter, and did not aggressively advocate or debate issues. So far, it’s 20 – 20 hindsight that adds significance to his earlier postings/actions. He posted the manifesto on the day of the attacks, in a vain attempt to manage media coverage. Security and police could not reasonably be expected to digest and respond so immediately.

    He legally owned the Ruger Mini semiautomatic rifle ( for deer hunting ) and the Glock Pistol. Norway apparently has requirements not too different to NZ – pistol ownership requires further background checks as well as regular participation in a sports shooting club. He went through the time-consuming process to obtain weapons legally after he failed to procure illegal weapons in Prague.

    This was a long time in the planning, and presumably future inquiries will determine if obvious warning signs were missed. I think I’ll wait for their reports, and just accept I’m wrong till then.

    Comment by Bruce Hamilton — July 25, 2011 @ 12:56 pm

  41. Now they’ve moved online. That should not make them any less of interest to the police and in terms of an enabling feedback loop it certainly makes some of them potentially way more dangerous to society.

    maybe there’s something with the internet and social media that adds to the danger but all Chapman needed was The Catcher in the Rye.

    Comment by NeilM — July 25, 2011 @ 1:03 pm

  42. I wonder if NeilM is onto something almost Randian with his list of right wing killer nutjobs – individualists, acting as lone supermen to achieve change, as opposed to the collectivist efforts of the revolutionary left groups, too whimpy to go it alone.

    Comment by insider — July 25, 2011 @ 1:30 pm

  43. Insider, I think Kaczinski (who acted alone) was a kind of leftie, and Al Qaeda (who work as a collective) are a form of right-wing.

    Comment by Kahikatea — July 25, 2011 @ 1:39 pm

  44. Regarding finding same or similar images, TinEye Reverse Image Search can be useful, allowing you to search for images same/similar to one you already have.

    http://www.tineye.com/

    Tom

    Comment by Tom — July 25, 2011 @ 1:44 pm

  45. Please Kahikatea, let’s try not to introduce facts into this discussion; that’s a complete breach of blog protocol.

    Comment by insider — July 25, 2011 @ 1:54 pm

  46. If I were a betting man I’d bet that this guy:

    Wasn’t an active Christian, but sees Christianity as a potential ally in his crusade against Muslims.
    Isn’t a nut job.. more like a Clayton Weatherstone perhaps
    Has joined and left organisations because they weren’t extreme enough
    Apart from his obssessions, isn’t overtly political
    Was cruel to animals at some time.
    Is particularly vain

    JC

    Comment by JC — July 25, 2011 @ 2:39 pm

  47. @Bruce Hamilton – dude, there is a clear difference betwen, say, not pc or kiwiblog, and sites like Loudon’s and crusader rabbit. To claim otherwise is to be simply deliberately mendacious or dumb.

    This article in the Guardian notes that extremist right wing movement rhetoric has been ramping up in recent times in Europe, and that as long as wo years ago anti-terrorism officers in Britain warned of a growing threat from rightwing “lone wolves”.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/24/norway-bombing-attack-far-right

    What makes you think some farmer somewhere in NZ isn’t reading all the right wing paranoia out there in his evenings and spending his days around the farm quietly getting angrier and angrier at the “leftist threat”?

    Now, there a bit of a contradiction here – can you be a “lone wolf” and part of a movement? Maybe this is where the internet plays its role. Afterall, in these slacktivist times it is possible to seek out, read and be egged on from the comfort of your own home, to feel you are part of a wider movement simply by bookmarking in your browser.

    I am no more comfortable than you at the idea of the police monitoring who regularly goes to, say, Trevor Loudon’s site and then quietly pulling that person’s browsing history and bank records to make sure they haven’t purchased a pile of fertilizer or semi-automatic rifles, but if we are going to start taking this sort of deadly, home grown terrorism seriously, then maybe it is something that has to be done.

    Comment by Sanctuary — July 25, 2011 @ 2:43 pm

  48. Kahikatea, while Al-Qaeda are very socially conservative, they also use a lot of anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist rhetoric that makes it hard to call them right wing.

    (Although I guess you could argue they can also be pro-imperialistic, as their stance on the Islamic Caliphate’s imperialism seems to be that it was a good thing)

    Comment by Hugh — July 25, 2011 @ 2:51 pm

  49. “I am no more comfortable than you at the idea of the police monitoring who regularly goes to, say, Trevor Loudon’s site and then quietly pulling that person’s browsing history and bank records”

    you sound quite comfortable with the idea because you’re proposing it in what sounds like a serious manner. But have you considered that, even if it were workable, the resources that would need to be diverted from busting cannabis growers in northland to staff your new thought crime unit would mean a massive flood of marijuana would engulf the entire country and we’d all be doomed. (hey it may sound fanciful, but anything goes in Sanctuary’s parallel reality)…

    Comment by nommopilot — July 25, 2011 @ 3:03 pm

  50. “Wasn’t an active Christian, but sees Christianity as a potential ally in his crusade against Muslims.”

    I only skimmed through 2083 after someone linked it off Twitter, but I think it mentions cultivating disdain for Christianity and Judaism, which would be oddly contradictory with the whole valorisation of the Knights Templar – or perhaps I misread and he was just citing that as a tactic of ‘cultural Marxists’/’multiculturalists’/[insert imaginary evil forces here].

    Comment by Sam F — July 25, 2011 @ 3:14 pm

  51. Santuary @ 2:43 pm – I’m with you there too, it certainly should be considered. Ironically I’m trying to discuss similar things on TS but just get the usual.

    nommopilot @ 3:03 pm – I’d rather have a million potheads than one Breivik in New Zealand.

    Comment by Pete George — July 25, 2011 @ 3:31 pm

  52. I am no more comfortable than you at the idea of the police monitoring who regularly goes to, say, Trevor Loudon’s site and then quietly pulling that person’s browsing history and bank records to make sure they haven’t purchased a pile of fertilizer or semi-automatic rifles

    Oh dear. I visited Mr Loudon’s site because Danyl linked to it. Does this mean I am now subject to police monitoring?

    Trevor Loudon is a well-known Christchurch fruitloop who is heavily into Zenith Applied Philosophy (and has so been for 30 years). I think he is harmless.

    I think Cam Slater is probably harmless too but he certainly seems to be into guns and heavy weaponry in a big way, which makes me glad I don’t live anywhere near him.

    Comment by johnsonmike — July 25, 2011 @ 3:48 pm

  53. “Isn’t a nut job.. more like a Clayton Weatherstone perhaps”

    It has been suggested that he was planning this, or something similar, for nine years – e.g. setting up businesses to allow him to legally purchase large amounts of nitrate-based fertiliser without suspicion (I don’t actually know how fact-y that allegation is).

    That, for me, puts him squarely in the nutjob basket, albeit one of the cold, calm and collected ones, rather than a frenzied red-faced spittle-flinger.

    Comment by Rich (the other one) — July 25, 2011 @ 3:48 pm

  54. I wonder if NeilM is onto something almost Randian with his list of right wing killer nutjobs – individualists, acting as lone supermen to achieve change, as opposed to the collectivist efforts of the revolutionary left groups, too whimpy to go it alone.

    I think it says something about the male mind, I’m not sure if it fits in with a left/right analysis.

    Comment by NeilM — July 25, 2011 @ 3:59 pm

  55. Kahikatea, while Al-Qaeda are very socially conservative, they also use a lot of anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist rhetoric that makes it hard to call them right wing.

    And their recruitment strategy is not dissimilar to those historically used by Marxist groups and Soviet agents — their “officers” have often been brought in while they were at good universities on mummy and daddy’s dollar.

    Comment by Russell Brown — July 25, 2011 @ 4:22 pm

  56. Kahikatea, while Al-Qaeda are very socially conservative, they also use a lot of anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist rhetoric that makes it hard to call them right wing.

    And their recruitment strategy is not dissimilar to those historically used by Marxist groups and Soviet agents — their “officers” have often been brought in while they were at good universities on mummy and daddy’s dollar.

    The left/right dichotonomy doesn’t even work that well for Western politics. I seen absolutely no point in trying to use it to characterise the political position of Islamic fundamentalists.

    Comment by wtl — July 25, 2011 @ 4:32 pm

  57. Ack, there is no no in dichotomy of course! ;)

    Comment by wtl — July 25, 2011 @ 4:33 pm

  58. The videos are the least of it. A few quotes from Crusader Rabbit:

    “The enemies hearts and minds can be won with half an ounce of lead at 2000fps.”

    “1,570,000,000 (Muslims) ……….that’s a lot of lead.” “or a few kilograms of plutonium….”

    “The recommended treatment is to inject the sufferer behind the left ear with a small amount of lead at very high velocity.”

    Still, Redbaiter posts there so presumably it’s all talk and no action.

    Redbaiter has some intelligence. The issue is the others.

    “Nemesis” is a media spokesperson for a far right Australian Nationalist party (ie fascist party), and is no doubt known to Australian authorities.

    At least one other on the site, including the founder (thankfully no longer in NZ), has form and is also known to authorities.

    It is most important that such people are not censored on the internet. To censor them would simply drive them underground.

    Comment by Ex Staffer — July 25, 2011 @ 4:44 pm

  59. Sanctuary,

    You were expecting police to identify somebody who apparently had been through the normal Norwegian gun control character references and was legally permitted to own arms. The manifesto was posted immediately prior to the terror attacks, and I still consider it unreasonable to expect security/police to respond immediately to such a document.

    There are many cut-de-sacs on the Internet for the deranged to patronise, and I would expect security/police to perform risk assessments and allocate appropriate resources when evidence ( not deluded rants ) suggests a tangible threat may exist. I still believe a greater threat exists from less obvious terrorists.

    As noted above by johnsonmike, the terrorist is superficially not much different to Cam Slater who reported serious mental health issues, but still enthusiastically discusses firearms, suggesting he may hold a licence. Normally, in NZ, firearms licence holders requiring any mental health treatment will lead to automatic revoking of their licence.

    My education didn’t cover the futile Crusades in detail, and I still don’t care whether Crusader Rabbit belongs to Templar or Lagomorpha orders.

    Comment by Bruce Hamilton — July 25, 2011 @ 4:53 pm

  60. Anyone who has had any dealings whatsoever with Loudon and the ZAP nutters know they are seriously wierd, and IMHO only one literalist follower away from potentially being a killer cult.
    Possibly, though from their track record it would appear that it’s the cult’s members who were most at risk:

    http://thecentreoftheuniverse.webs.com/parttwojohndalhoff.htm
    On December 30th, 1980 Lane Anthony Hunt, a 32 year old business-man was found dead, in the sauna at Christchurch’s ‘Ladies & Gents Health Parlour’. The parents of Lane made accusations (N.Z Times 16th December 1984) their son died while under-going ‘a purification programme’. They also called for Police to investigate John Dalhoff and the Z.A.P ‘sect’ (their description, by the way). Although the exact circumstances of Lane Hunts death remain a mystery (one ‘rumour’ at the time was he was wearing a wet-suit) it was established that he been frequenting the sauna for prolonged periods on the orders of John Dalhoff. The last time Margaret & Charles Hunt saw their son alive was Christmas Day and Lane had declined to eat the family meal stating he was on ‘a purification diet’.

    Another couple who called for Z.A.P to be investigated were the grieving parents of Peter Seward, who died in a car accident right outside Dalhoffs house, September 01st 1984.

    The repute of this address around Christchurch was by then, well and truly established.

    “After discussing philosophical matters until the early hours, two men stood in the middle of the road, stopped motorists and told them to report to the police at a nearby house. Like Queen Victoria, “the police were not amused” the men’s counsel Mr S.G Eber, said in the Christchurch Magistrates Court yesterday. John Eric Dalhoff aged 30 and Lane Anthony Hunt aged 26, admitted obstructing the carriageway in Clyde Road, Christchurch on September 6. Both were convicted and ordered to come up for sentence within six months if called on” [Excerpts from N.Z Herald articled ‘Police Not Amused By Puzzling Behaviour’ 08th October 1974]

    Comment by Joe Wylie — July 25, 2011 @ 4:56 pm

  61. Sam F I slogged through some of it last night, with quite some regret as his long planned atrocity is explicitly a marketing tool to get people to read it. As written he had 2 plans at the outset. “If I fail to generate the specified amount I will move forward with the operation, in order to market the compendium that way.” Plan A was founding a movement “to distribute a ‘legal version’ of the compendium” which was budgeted to cost 3 million Euros. He got to 500.000, which was not enough. He tried stock options with 250 000 leaving the rest as his budget for plan B if it didn’t work out. It didn’t – Norway got plan B. It is just how the business plan went.
    At a couple of points I seem to remember him mentioning recently going to church and a rare occasion of prayer.
    He describes himself as “not excessively religious” and unequivocally supports science over biblical teaching. He is a strong supporter of Israel, and at pains not to be seen as a right winger who thinks Jews rule the world etc. He is operating on ideology not race as he sees it; the innate nature of Islam to want to spread everywhere by any means, the cultural forces in Europe that enable Islam to spread, Christianity as signifier of the common cultural heritage of Europe including its secular aspects. “Multiculturalists” are seen as anti Israel and anti their own heritage including Christian origins.

    Comment by Michael — July 25, 2011 @ 5:38 pm

  62. Of course, this was in the spiralling insanity of the comments, not DPF’s own reasonable post. You have to wonder, though – at what point does the landlord take some responsibility for the drunkards in his tavern?

    A bit late to hop in on this, but… I don’t think DPF should be held responsible for the fact that his blog, by a combination of luck and right-place-right-time, has become the clearing house for New Zealand’s far right, even if they don’t entirely share his views.

    But if I was DPF and held the views he did I would feel rather uncomfortable with the fact that, when people hear the name “David Farrar” they mostly think of the vitriol of his commenters, not anything he posts. I think he may think that the blog’s success is due to the quality of what he posts, not its hang-out area status. But I have seen a few posts where he’s implied that he feels the blog has a “silent majority” readership who are more ideologically in line with him and who just don’t comment… again, I wonder how I would feel if I were him.

    Ultimately though I think it’s not fair to hold him responsible because it would be a full time job attempting to moderate that comment volume, and while he has attempted to get volunteer help, that sort of thing is never reliable.

    Comment by Hugh — July 25, 2011 @ 6:19 pm

  63. Fascinating take on this on that oracle of impartial information, Wikipedia. This is the opening line of the article:

    The 2011 Norway attacks were twin right-wing Zionist terrorist attacks against the civilian population, the government and a political summer camp in Norway on 22 July 2011.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

    Comment by johnsonmike — July 25, 2011 @ 6:33 pm

  64. And we used to think that newspapers were the first draft of history. No doubt there are wiki edit wars going on as we type

    Comment by insider — July 25, 2011 @ 6:48 pm

  65. And this: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2011/07/right-wing-terrorism-as-folk-activism.html is well barking.

    Comment by Pascal's bookie — July 25, 2011 @ 7:07 pm

  66. “Fascinating take on this on that oracle of impartial information, Wikipedia. This is the opening line of the article…”

    Having checked the article several times in the last day or so, that particular Zionist=themed opening was probably only up momentarily. Most times I’ve looked the opening line has been along the lines of: “The 2011 Norway attacks were twin terrorist attacks against the civilian population, the government and a political summer camp in Norway on 22 July 2011.”

    Comment by uke — July 25, 2011 @ 7:57 pm

  67. What does Peter Dunne say about the death of common sense? Huh?

    Comment by MeToo — July 25, 2011 @ 8:52 pm

  68. You can’t google image content the same way you can google words

    Actually, you can. Aside from TinEye, there’s http://www.google.com/insidesearch/searchbyimage.html

    Comment by Flynn the Cat — July 25, 2011 @ 10:12 pm

  69. bit late to the party but:

    “I think political parties function similarly to revolutionary movements – other capable people will step forward …”

    the same could be said of these idiots “going galt”.

    Comment by che tibby — July 26, 2011 @ 10:07 am

  70. And right on cue, Glenn Beck – “There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that’s all about politics?”

    And we all know what the right to do with Nazis is, right?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8660986/Norway-shooting-Glenn-Beck-compares-dead-teenagers-to-Hitler-youth.html

    Comment by Sanctuary — July 26, 2011 @ 11:08 am

  71. *And we all know what the right thing to do with Nazis is, right?

    Comment by Sanctuary — July 26, 2011 @ 11:10 am

  72. Beck is vile asshole.
    When is some good citizen going to put that mad dog down I wonder.

    Comment by Gregor W — July 26, 2011 @ 11:17 am

  73. Heh. Nice irony, Gregor W.

    I hope!

    Comment by Andrew Geddis — July 26, 2011 @ 11:25 am

  74. hmmm… the US Tea Party rallies . “which sounds a little like, you know, [Nurenburg]?”

    Comment by che tibby — July 26, 2011 @ 11:37 am

  75. check out the photo of Beck with that Telegraph piece, specifically his left arm. Rather unfortunate but appropriate.

    Comment by NeilM — July 26, 2011 @ 11:49 am

  76. domestic terrorism in the USA

    note: this is americans targeting other americans (and, muslims).

    the media is unwilling to label this ‘terrorism’ apparently.

    Comment by che tibby — July 26, 2011 @ 12:16 pm

  77. “check out the photo of Beck with that Telegraph piece, specifically his left arm. Rather unfortunate but appropriate.”

    So I wasn’t the only one thinking that…

    Comment by Sam F — July 26, 2011 @ 12:29 pm

  78. I noted Beck’s hypocrisy n that some project he is involved with runs “Vacation Liberty Schools” ..
    I went to the VLS site Ivory Notebook.

    “Some of the main points of emphasis in this installment of VLS include:

    * With freedom comes responsibility. Blending freedom and responsibility requires virtuous, moral, and educated citizens. This is why we teach the principles of liberty from the perspective of faith, hope, and charity.”

    He could maybe spend some time at one of his own schools, especially wrt responsibility and charity in the fullest sense.

    Comment by Michael — July 26, 2011 @ 1:51 pm

  79. @ Andrew Geddis

    Naturally.

    Unless of course a confession could be extracted from Beck (inciting terrorism, treason, sedition or altogether trumped up alternative) expedited via appropriate “strong interrogation techniques” so beloved by the American Right, in which case it would only be prudent to dish out an extra-judicial execution forthwith in order to avoid clogging up the courts with a time wasting due process.

    Comment by Gregor W — July 26, 2011 @ 3:13 pm

  80. You can’t google image content the same way you can google words

    Quite apart from tineye, google just added that sort of feature. Click on the camera in the image search window (results were a bit random when I tried, gave a bit much weight to the file name I think)

    Comment by lyndon — July 26, 2011 @ 4:03 pm

  81. “Unless of course a confession could be extracted from Beck (inciting terrorism, treason, sedition or altogether trumped up alternative) expedited via appropriate “strong interrogation techniques” so beloved by the American Right, in which case it would only be prudent to dish out an extra-judicial execution forthwith in order to avoid clogging up the courts with a time wasting due process.”

    One can only the chutzpa of producing this whilst criticising the same from those on the right.

    JC

    Comment by JC — July 26, 2011 @ 5:16 pm

  82. JC wrote: “One can only the chutzpa of producing this whilst criticising the same from those on the right.”

    …or recognise it as an ironic criticism of Beck’s own rhetoric

    Comment by Kahikatea — July 26, 2011 @ 5:27 pm

  83. Yeah, but you get the same thing anywhere you go on the blogs. Its meaningless in determining who might go off the deep end (Trev Mallard excluded).

    JC

    Comment by JC — July 26, 2011 @ 5:51 pm

  84. JC thinks irony means “like iron”. Don’t waste your time.

    Comment by Dizzy — July 26, 2011 @ 6:51 pm

  85. Dizzy, you’re late in the office for a PS staffer.

    Comment by will — July 26, 2011 @ 7:30 pm

  86. Feeling starved of attention will?

    Comment by Guy Smiley — July 26, 2011 @ 7:40 pm

  87. not now you are here to expand the vacuum Guy.

    Comment by will — July 26, 2011 @ 7:52 pm

  88. This is an appalling thread based on an appalling premise. Truely ghoulish.

    Comment by will — July 26, 2011 @ 7:57 pm

  89. will has spoken. Let silence fall.

    Comment by Grassed Up — July 26, 2011 @ 9:51 pm

  90. You were in there balls deep pal so have an interest in poo pooing the concept don’t you,
    eh.

    Comment by will — July 26, 2011 @ 9:58 pm

  91. And yet you speak on, will. Does your scorn never cease?

    Comment by Grassed Up — July 26, 2011 @ 11:16 pm

  92. Arsed up: While we’re discussing crazy, regular Dimpost visitor James (the actual one) contributed this gem to the discussion over at kiwiblog yesterday:

    “Awww is Andrew Geddis Having a cry? Fuck you you bed-wetting, pussy whipped cunt. (yeah yeah , demerits…whatever DPF….out and proud) but I am happy to spend them).You are still a gutless shit and your family is ill served by your cowardly fagottness”

    Turns out he’s not just odd, he’s actually a bit of a prick. Even dpf felt moved to kick him off his site for a fortnight. Something to remember next time he shows up here, perhaps …

    Go ahead…I meant every word I said about that cowardly shit who said he wouldn’t even act to defend his own family from attack.I wasn’t aware DPF had banned me as I hardly bother with KB much and I had a credit of demerits backed up so was free to spend a few …;-)

    Comment by James (the actual one) — July 27, 2011 @ 1:38 am

  93. Tell me James, do you think you are a foot soldier for your cause?

    Comment by Sanctuary — July 27, 2011 @ 7:42 am

  94. I just want a free society where people leave others alone and don’t violate their rights………yet this is seen as radical and unpopular.

    Go figure.

    Comment by James (the actual one) — July 27, 2011 @ 7:48 am

  95. Not really Jimbo. You just want a free society where everyone’s packing heat to avoid gun crime. And you left school in the 5th form? Go figure.

    Comment by Guy Smiley — July 27, 2011 @ 7:55 am

  96. Have a wee read of 21 above and see why others view you as “radical and unpopular”, you deeply messed up jerk.

    Comment by Grassed Up — July 27, 2011 @ 8:43 am

  97. Just some context to James’ abuse … the Kiwiblog regulars were opining that the reason Norway’s tragedy happened was that there weren’t enough people guns around to stop it. I pointed out that even were this true (although it probably ain’t), having more guns around create more gun accidents, and I’d rather my kids didn’t shoot themselves after curiously picking up someone’s automatic. Cue James’ charming contribution.

    Comment by Andrew Geddis — July 27, 2011 @ 9:04 am

  98. “…Fuck you you bed-wetting, pussy whipped cunt…”

    The most remarkable thing about people like James is he fails to realise just what close bedfellows he and Anders Breivik actually are. After all, the line above reveals a deep fear of empowered women – and the crude sexual abuse implies he is especially afraid of sexually empowered women, who I imagine run a powerful counter-narrative to his own conviction he is a warrior for the truth in a world of immoral turpitude.

    let us, then, look at James’ unguarded words and consider this analysis from the dailybeast (hat tip to the handmirror)

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/07/24/norway-massacre-anders-breivik-s-deadly-attack-fueled-by-hatred-of-women.html

    I invite gentle readers to draw their own conclusions about the ubiquity of thought amongst these rather sad and pathetic men.

    Comment by Sanctuary — July 27, 2011 @ 9:15 am

  99. Oh and BTW – I think the likes of James can’t be taken seriously on a forum like this. the only place he should be taken seriously is either his local mental health unit or by the police. Or possibly both.

    Comment by Sanctuary — July 27, 2011 @ 9:19 am

  100. ahhh… that old problem. a “bloke” who
    1. thinks women are only good for building the beast
    2. only good for making babies.
    3. can’t get laid.
    4. starts hating women.

    pretty common type of total ar$ehole really.

    Comment by che tibby — July 27, 2011 @ 9:51 am

  101. Goog God he trolls you well.

    Comment by will — July 27, 2011 @ 9:54 am

  102. the Kiwiblog regulars were opining that the reason Norway’s tragedy happened was that there weren’t enough people guns around to stop it.

    That’s a gross misrepresentation of what’s been posted on Kiwiblog. A very small majority on Kiwiblog opined that.

    Comment by Pete George — July 27, 2011 @ 10:11 am

  103. The Standard has been hammering the “right are violent” message. Some on the right are violent, some on right wing blogs promote violence and are abusive, but violence is not a problem of “the right” – ask Trevor Mallard.

    Our political and social revile is across the spectrum, and it’s up to all of us to accept that and address it, not to just keep blaming an opponent.

    Comment by Pete George — July 27, 2011 @ 10:15 am

  104. “…Goog God he trolls you well….”

    And between the pair of you, you capture the whole right wing passive-aggressive sneering thing quite well.

    Comment by Sanctuary — July 27, 2011 @ 10:19 am

  105. Santuary, passive-aggressive sneering is not confined to the right, I’ve seen more of it from the left.

    Comment by Pete George — July 27, 2011 @ 10:21 am

  106. Rule of Dimpost:

    (Level of shitfighting) = ((Number of comments in thread) – 100 ) * 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

    Comment by Bed Rater — July 27, 2011 @ 10:29 am

  107. OR, Not PC’s recent solution to labour’s poll woes:

    “Shall we kill them in their beds?” How about this: presently, a strong case can be made for the proposal to kill the entire front bench of Government in their beds, along with the Leaders of all Opposition Parties and all the various Human Wrongs Commissars. Practical, and easily done (although I’d expect difficulties coordinating the overabundance of volunteers.) Certainly provocative – and strongly based on the principle of self-defence. A proposal I’m sure we could all live with, so to speak. But as Tracinscki says, we activists must beware of purchasing freedom in one sphere at the expense of increased controls in another – the subsequent police crackdown on the assassins would undoubtedly remove all the freedoms gained by such a move, and for that reason it should be shunned — and I say that with obvious sadness.

    Oh dearie me…
    http://pc.blogspot.com/2011/07/shall-we-kill-them-in-their-bedsor.html

    Comment by Sam — July 27, 2011 @ 3:44 pm

  108. God you’re such a sanctimonious weiner Sancy.

    Comment by will — July 27, 2011 @ 7:29 pm

  109. And the whining keeps a rolling along…………………………………………………………………………….(for Rhino) ;-)

    Comment by James (the actual one) — July 27, 2011 @ 9:36 pm

  110. This thread really is the lefty version of Godwin’s law as PC said……ironic….but not surprising.

    Comment by James (the actual one) — July 27, 2011 @ 9:37 pm

  111. @ Sanctuary: “Oh and BTW – I think the likes of James can’t be taken seriously on a forum like this. the only place he should be taken seriously is either his local mental health unit or by the police. Or possibly both.”

    He’s nothing but a troll and contributes nothing to the conversation.

    It’s rather interesting to see the parallels between (some of) the right-wing in this country and Norway; we’ve now seen the evil caused by someone who’s fighting for some “cause”. I was a little worried about the potential of it happening here, but thankfully those who advocate violence to achieve their ends never go past typing angry words on their computer.

    Comment by Dan Burt — July 28, 2011 @ 12:35 am

  112. And there’s Danny boy Burt who’s arse is still smarting from the kicking I gave it on Asset sales on FB….I pwned you there son shine and am happy to do so again here…
    ;-)

    Comment by James (the actual one) — July 28, 2011 @ 12:54 am

  113. @ James: I seem to recall you scampering off with your tail between your legs, LMAO. If my arse was kicked, why am I here, despite you being here (you’ve got your own way with words, who else could it be but you?) It’s great to see you spreading your internet tough-guy abuse around the www, got anything more than words?

    Comment by Dan Burt — July 28, 2011 @ 1:12 am

  114. What scampering off was required…? You guys went all quiet when the absurdity of your position was no longer defensible…hence the assets sales site just stopped….no?

    You are here because this is where lefty saddo’s end up taking to themselves in their own echo chamber and shifting about uncomfortably when someone offers a dissenting opinion which leads to the making snide personal attacks and getting whiny.

    You should fit right in….lol ;-)

    Comment by James (the actual one) — July 28, 2011 @ 1:28 am

  115. I went and had a look on FB Dan…it seems you sneaky lefties have crawled out from under your cone of silence and are trying to fan some flames into your nonsense…..well I’m back! ;-)

    Comment by James (the actual one) — July 28, 2011 @ 1:33 am

  116. @ James: The campaign page is still active and gaining members, and although quieter than when you lot were sent over from Whaleoil to rock the boat and troll it, there are still contributions and posts being made to the page. You left when you couldn’t make people see the “immorality” of their political positions.

    I seem to recall the majority of snide attacks and whiny behaviour (not to mention childish name-calling) coming from trolls like yourself.

    So, still just words is it? No action to get your libertarian paradise off the ground? Colour me surprised. At least you’re not advocating the murder of political opponents, or terrorist activities in the capital (although the imprisonment of leaders for “treason” is still on the table, right?).

    Comment by Dan Burt — July 28, 2011 @ 1:42 am

  117. Whale never sent me over Dan…I found you and took you on myself.

    You guys went quite and didn’t post responses to my posts so I naturally took that as a win and moved on ….that’s what people with their OWN lives do. ;-0

    The name calling was initiated by your mate Mr Dutton…poor guy just couldn’t handle being wrong.

    As the socialist left are history’s no’1 mass killers by many miles I find it ironic all the gaped mouthed horror being expressed by said lefty’s over one Norwegian nutter with an odd grab bag of views and beliefs.What’s that saying about removing a log from ones own eye….?

    Comment by James (the actual one) — July 28, 2011 @ 1:57 am

  118. @ James: Sure, you found us by yourself. Okay.

    People stopped replying because they were tired of your stubborn trolling. Not because you “won” or “pwned” them. And because you’ve apparently started posting to the page again (have better things to do than check it), what does that mean?

    Please quote sources re: “As the socialist left are history’s no’1 mass killers by many miles [...]“. Breivik has ties to right-wing isolationist groups in Norway (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2017962/Anders-Behring-Breivik-Right-wing-extremist-hated-immigrants-multi-culturalism.html; http://boingboing.net/2011/07/22/oslo-terror-suspect.html), and attacked the ruling Arbeiderpartiet. What was that about irony again?

    Comment by Dan Burt — July 28, 2011 @ 2:10 am

  119. As I said,he’s a nutter with a grab bag of ideas and views that are all over the show. Some I have a certain sympathy for,as would many people….others are bizarre and irrational.

    Look up “The Black Book of Communism”…it give’s by the numbers account of leftwing socialism’s tally of death which reached well over 100 million in the 20th century,not including war dead.That doesn’t include the Nazis who, while also socialists,were on the socialist right.

    Also go here….http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

    R J Rummel’s “Death by Government.”

    Comment by James (the actual one) — July 28, 2011 @ 2:28 am

  120. @ James: It would be interesting to know what ideas (and ideals) of Breivik’s you have a certain sympathy for.

    As for “[...] socialism’s tally of death” via those non-neutral sources, it could be argued that none of the regimes listed were truly socialist (or communist: a “communist state” is an oxymoron, as communism calls for the elimination of nation-states, and for those to be replaced by a world-wide worker-controlled society); the USSR certainly was a totalitarian nation, and never communist (it had managerial class, which puts it out of the running for being communist), China was, and definitely, isn’t communist, but state-capitalist; and Nazi Germany’s ruling NSDAP, whilst presenting itself as being politically syncretic (“Nazi ideology stressed the failures of laissez-faire capitalism, communism, economic liberalism, and democracy”, https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Nazi_Party), is now regarded as being largely right-wing fascist (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Nazism) — being anti-democratic certainly made it non-socialist, not to mention its dalliances with foreign corporations.

    Thanks for playing, try again.

    Comment by Dan Burt — July 28, 2011 @ 2:57 am

  121. You fail again Burty. Fascism IS socialism….just a slight variant from the main body.”Right wing” originally meant the right (fascist) side of socialism….not capitalist free market-ism.They have become all bound up in the lefty gab all of Right wing” when they are very different things based on very different philosophy’s of man.

    The BBoC was written by socialists Dan….and R J Rummel is acknowledged as an unbiased source internationally….he lists all tyranny’s without favour.

    While true that the USSR ad China were not true communist country’s they most certainly did implement the crucial aspect that makes Communism..ands all collectivist tyranny’s…that is centrally planned control of human individuals.

    Face facts Dan…you are on the side of a political dogma that kills people.

    Comment by James (the actual one) — July 28, 2011 @ 3:15 am

  122. @ James: Let’s look up the Oxford English dictionary definition of “fascism”, shall we? (Instead of the make-believe definition of the book of James): “fascism |ˈfaʃɪz(ə)m| |-sɪz(ə)m| (also Fascism)
    noun
    an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
    • (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.”

    Excellent, no mention of fascism = socialism there.

    Also, let’s look up where the term “right wing” came from. Oh here it is: “The terms Right and Left were coined during the French Revolution.” (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Right-wing_politics). Great.

    As for the BBoC, I can see no mention anywhere of ‘socialists’ writing the book. And why would socialists write a book that attempts to discredit a philosophy that is the end result of socialism? It’s plain illogical.

    And collectivism ≠ socialism (or communism for that matter): “Collectivism has been widely used to refer to a number of different political, economic and educational philosophies, ranging from communalism and democracy to totalitarian nationalism.” (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Collectivism), although I fear that you may have gotten your definition from (http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/collectivism.html). Going by your definition, ANY collectivist entity, such as a nation-state, is inherently tyrannical. Which makes sense coming from an objectivist Randian.

    As far as I can see, socialism (or communism, or even collectivism) isn’t responsible for the deaths of millions, dictatorships (which run counter to the values of socialism and communism) are.

    Comment by Dan Burt — July 28, 2011 @ 3:42 am

  123. Jimbo thinks that any ideology that has not been set down by the mighty cougar is communism, Dan. He’s a bit funny like that. Just don’t ask him to explain himself, it’s painful watching him try and makes him morph into other identities so as not to be so terribly lonely. However, the universe talks to him. That’s why he “knows” things no one else does and he could leave school in the 5th form to forge a life of unparalleled brilliance (at least he will be, starting tomorrow). Pwned, epic fail, game over, loser saddos!

    Comment by Guy Smiley — July 28, 2011 @ 8:37 am

  124. “…Fascism IS socialism…”

    Your that guy who who stands up at public meetings and tells Nobel prize winning physicists that the speed of light isn’t constant and therefore evolution is a hoax, aren’t you James?

    Comment by Sanctuary — July 28, 2011 @ 9:00 am

  125. @ Guy: Mea culpa, I tried to reason with someone so obviously deluded that they can’t see the forest for the trees. It is pretty interesting to see the way that some people’s brains work. Lesson learned: the fantasy world of James trumps reality! “Pwned” indeed. Hehe.

    Comment by Dan Burt — July 28, 2011 @ 2:20 pm

  126. Oh dear, it looks like the universe has been telling James porkies again

    Comment by Kahikatea — July 28, 2011 @ 3:07 pm

  127. The above comments re: fascism demonstrate why the left-right dichotomy is a nonsense. See this: http://whakahekeheke.tumblr.com/post/7955663252/leftism-vs-right-wingers-and-the-stupidity-of

    Comment by Quoth the Raven — July 28, 2011 @ 5:00 pm

  128. Say what you like but Fascism is socialism….it was founded by socialists in the form of Mussolini et el and is based on the same principles as the parent dogma so expand your reading Burty…you are being left behind with bad info son.

    The BBoC was written by socialists…email them and ask.They were shocked and appalled at the crimes committed and detailed them.

    All forced collectivist society’s are by definition tyranny’s….try opting out and see what happens….

    Its like dealing with children with you lot….and that’s insulting children.

    Comment by James (the actual one) — July 28, 2011 @ 5:17 pm

  129. James wrote: “Say what you like but Fascism is socialism…”

    normally when people use the word ‘socialism’, they mean a political system or ideology that prioritises reducing the material inequalities between people, and normally when people use the word ‘fascism’, they are referring to something different.

    Of course, you can use words to mean anything you want, but I usually find it’s easier for other people to understand what I’m saying if I use words to mean the same things other people understand them to mean. If you’re not sure what particular words mean to other people, maybe that’s something the universe can help you with.

    Comment by Kahikatea — July 28, 2011 @ 6:04 pm

  130. Socialism is bad.
    Fascism is bad.
    Therefore, socialism is fascism (and vice versa).

    Even a child can see this, surely? (Because only someone of child-like comprehension could come up with it…)

    Comment by Grassed Up — July 28, 2011 @ 6:07 pm

  131. Why don’t you guys, instead of facilely arguing over the semantics of “socialism” and “fascism”, actually argue over the political and economic realities of the respective systems, of their differences and similarities in practice?

    Comment by Quoth the Raven — July 28, 2011 @ 6:55 pm

  132. The defining characteristic of socialism is centrally planned state control of the economy/society…. Fascism,Communism, Social democracy etc all fit that description with cosmetic differences between them.Its the central planning that makes the socialism.
    As lefty’s claim capitalism is somehow fascism despite the glaringly obvious contradictory factors of each system the accepted use of commonly understood labels around this issue has long since gone.

    Good luck with that Raven…they aren’t interested in detail and depth.

    Comment by James (the actual one) — July 28, 2011 @ 11:50 pm

  133. @ James: re comment 132. “The defining characteristic of socialism is centrally planned state control of the economy/society….” Making up things again, are you? Remember what I said about collectivism not equalling socialism? True socialism — and in particular, anarcho-syndicalism — sees no need for a centrally planned economy, and instead relies upon a co-operative model (the end result being the end of nation-states as we know them). Of course, you being the last person to care about “detail” and “depth”, you’re more than happy to live in your own world and not take on board what others are saying to you.

    As Kahikatea alluded to in comment 129, it would be helpful if you stopped making up your own definitions of words. Of course, if the real-world usage of words don’t fit within your narrow Randist view of things, then that’s too bad.

    Also, if I may refer back to comment 115: “I went and had a look on FB Dan…it seems you sneaky lefties have crawled out from under your cone of silence and are trying to fan some flames into your nonsense…..well I’m back!” What makes you think you’re so special? Do you think a vast-left wing commie socialist plot has been formed to seek you out? Do you have a casual relationship with reality? Please seek counselling if that’s the case, before you become an endangerment to others.

    Comment by Dan Burt — July 29, 2011 @ 12:56 am

  134. Tard: “The defining characteristic of socialism is centrally planned state control of the economy/society….” Making up things again, are you? Remember what I said about collectivism not equalling socialism?

    Not all collectivism is socialist…I never said otherwise….but all socialism IS collectivist…and that inevitably leads to loss of individual rights and freedoms and eventually loss of lives.As sure as night follows day Dan…you can’t evade the cause and effect relationship.

    Socialism is what it is at its most basic Dan…..top down centrally planning enacted and imposed upon others lower down whether they agree with it or not.Its the use of force to impose the will of some upon others via a central planning agency of some type.You can twist and turn all you like but that’s how it is.If its a voluntary,free market society then by definition it fails the “socialist” test.

    I never said I was special…just that I’m one of many who aren’t taking your economically illiterate,rights violating bullshit any-more and will call you on it anywhere I find it….your free run has ended.
    ;-)

    Comment by James (the actual one) — July 29, 2011 @ 1:12 am

  135. @ James: “Not all collectivism is socialist…I never said otherwise….but all socialism IS collectivist…and that inevitably leads to loss of individual rights and freedoms and eventually loss of lives.As sure as night follows day Dan…you can’t evade the cause and effect relationship.” Wrong again, buddy! Of course, being deluded like you are, you’re still equating socialism with collectivism: “all socialism IS collectivist”. Yes, quite.

    “I never said I was special…just that I’m one of many who aren’t taking your economically illiterate,rights violating bullshit any-more and will call you on it anywhere I find it….your free run has ended.” No one said you were special, I was just questioning your self-centred actions. And, of course, effecting change in your — and the, what, thousands(?) that you claim to represent — favour would necessitate collective, co-operative action. But, you know, that would be anathema to you. Oops.

    Comment by Dan Burt — July 29, 2011 @ 1:25 am

  136. Ok…just how is socialism NOT collectivist?……the same way that some people think that treating different races differently isn’t racist?

    Of course I’m “self centred”… if that means I am self-interested in the Randian sense of the term….but so are you and everyone else on this planet whether you admit it or not. ;-)

    Comment by James (the actual one) — July 29, 2011 @ 1:37 am

  137. @ James: So you’re going from, “Fascism IS socialism” in comment #121, to “The defining characteristic of socialism is centrally planned state control of the economy/society…. Fascism,Communism, Social democracy etc all fit that description with cosmetic differences between them.Its the central planning that makes the socialism.” in #132, and eventually making it to “but all socialism IS collectivist” two comments later in #134 (notwithstanding the fact that social democrat parties don’t adhere to collectivism). So what is socialism? Looks like you certainly have no idea.

    Being self-centred (thank you OED: “preoccupied with oneself and one’s affairs”) is different to being self-interested (again, thank you OED: “one’s personal interest or advantage, esp. when pursued without regard for others”). Everyone is aware of their own person, and when it comes to survival, will defend their lives. However, if everyone were self-centred or self-interested, then our species would never have made it out of the central African savannah.

    Comment by Dan Burt — July 29, 2011 @ 2:04 am

  138. Oh so now Social Democracy isn’t collectivist….ok. sigh.

    There is no contradiction between my statements Dan…they all say the same thing in essence….

    Comment by James (the actual one) — July 29, 2011 @ 2:35 am

  139. @ James: You need to catch up (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Social_democracy), in particular:
    *(https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Social_democracy#Post.E2.80.93World_War_II): “[...] Eventually, most social democratic parties have come to be dominated by the latter position and, in the post–World War II era, have abandoned any commitment to abolish capitalism.”
    *(https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Social_democracy#Ideology), “In general, contemporary social democrats support:
    A mixed economy consisting of both private enterprise and publicly owned or subsidized programs of education, universal health care, child care and related social services for all citizens.[...]”

    Modern social democracy isn’t collectivist. And your statements are completely contradictory (you’ve already been ridiculed for conflating fascism with socialism).

    Comment by Dan Burt — July 29, 2011 @ 3:00 am

  140. “Of course I’m “self centred”… if that means I am self-interested in the Randian sense of the term….but so are you and everyone else on this planet whether you admit it or not. ”

    It’s weird because James worships the mighty cougar and yet misunderstands her to the extend that he reduces her most cherished doctrine to a useless tautology (her doctrine is ridiculous and savage, but it’s not tautological). I guess that comes from realising the universe whispers the truth in your ear and so there’s no use for an education or reason.

    Comment by Guy Smiley — July 29, 2011 @ 8:12 am

  141. @ Guy: James seems to misunderstand all things political. It’s been an thoroughly fascinating thing to witness: James twisting and turning in the wind.
    @ James: You have constantly, and consistently, conflated the philosophy of Anders Breivik (fascism) with socialism. Perhaps you’re just plain confused? The “lonewolf”, fighting for his individual rights, is actually more akin to a grumpy chihuahua who nips at the heels of those who cross him. Thank you for being an entertaining spectacle.

    Comment by Dan Burt — July 29, 2011 @ 9:56 am


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