The Dim-Post

May 30, 2013

Useful

Filed under: general idiocy — danylmc @ 1:50 pm

Via Scoop, Susan Devoy’s statement on the racist Al Nisbet cartoons published by Fairfax:

Race Relations Commissioner Dame Susan Devoy says a cartoon published in newspapers is sadly insensitive to the issue of children living in poverty.

She says, “This is not particularly clever and many will find it hurtful and offensive. The worst aspect, in my opinion, is that it stigmatises efforts to address the situation that sees too many of our children living in poverty.

“Beyond that, it is glaringly obvious that the cartoon portrays Māori or Pacific as the butt of its attempted humour. Using such negative stereotypes in this way is insulting and derogatory in the extreme. “

We’ll see how it plays out, but Devoy could be an unexpectedly effective Race Relations Commissioner. If even the totally unqualified, unengaged Devoy thinks you’re a racist then that’s pretty damning.

Nisbet has defended his art thus:

Obviously the cartoon worked. It got reaction. You’ve got to push the envelope otherwise you have namby pamby PC cartoons.

We seem to be perpetually blessed with a  glut of old, white men who demonstrate their bravery by mocking the poor, ethnic minorities and other stigmitised groups in the name of taking a stand against ‘political correctness’.

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59 Comments »

  1. Sean Plunkett is not that old.

    Comment by giovanni — May 30, 2013 @ 1:52 pm

  2. Kiwi ex-pat here, lived in London for almost 25 years, visited NZ recently for the first time after all these years… travelled all round both north and south. Was in Picton, saw a Gollywog doll in a shop, was told that ‘we’re not too politically correct here’, like it was an accomplishment, akin to some form of virtue. No, I thought, you’re acting like a bunch of backward hicks, utterly thoughtless and unaware of your own privilege.

    Reminds me of the general standard of the Daily Mail about 20 years ago. Deeply sad.

    Comment by Furrball — May 30, 2013 @ 2:03 pm

  3. Nisbet also used the old “Scottish people get stereotyped too but we’re grown up enough not to mind it” routine.

    Comment by morgue — May 30, 2013 @ 2:09 pm

  4. Nisbet’s response has been scripted by Private Eye or Alan Partridge or whoever was skewering the likes of him 20 or 30 years ago (today’s satirists wouldn’t even bother, he’s just not credible enough as a comic invention).

    By coincidence, David Shearer is visiting the Christchurch Press this afternoon. Hopefully he will take a strong stance (against the weather).

    Comment by sammy 2.0 — May 30, 2013 @ 3:02 pm

  5. Or the Daily Mail of 80 years ago: https://twitter.com/IlkleyChess/status/319490884074876929/photo/1

    Comment by rich — May 30, 2013 @ 3:21 pm

  6. Or the BBC of 80 years ago : John Reith – BBC Founder – Pro-fascist sympathies

    Comment by OECD rank 22 kiwi — May 30, 2013 @ 3:39 pm

  7. Or Gallery journalists 20 minutes ago https://twitter.com/barrysoper/status/339968222000472065

    Comment by max — May 30, 2013 @ 5:17 pm

  8. Radio NZ Checkpoint, short version:

    Mary Wilson: “Would you like some more rope?”
    Al Nisbet: “Ooh, yes please!”

    I would say “You couldn’t make this guy up” but I’m starting to think someone has.

    Comment by sammy 2.0 — May 30, 2013 @ 5:55 pm

  9. Wow, they’re really being flushed out. First Soper, now Espiner …

    Comment by sammy 2.0 — May 30, 2013 @ 6:10 pm

  10. The cartoons are NOT racist. If you look closely you will notice several light coloured faces. Some old people and fat kids are depicted too. Furthermore there’s no mention of black motherfuckers, so on the Hone scale of offensiveness (where 10 is beyond the pale) it can’t rate much more than a 1. Still, if this makes Susan’s blood boil, I can’t wait to see her reaction when she comes face to face with real racism.

    Comment by Ross — May 30, 2013 @ 6:37 pm

  11. What do y’all think the families of these hungry kids are spending their money on then?

    Comment by Swan — May 30, 2013 @ 7:40 pm

  12. What money?

    Comment by giovanni — May 30, 2013 @ 7:42 pm

  13. Giovanni, don’t play dumb. Or can you not have a sensible conversation about this?

    Comment by Swan — May 30, 2013 @ 7:45 pm

  14. I’m not playing dumb. Benefits in this country were set in the early 90s at 20% under the poverty line, and have never been increased. So I ask again. What money?

    Comment by giovanni — May 30, 2013 @ 7:46 pm

  15. Al Nisbet should count himself lucky. If he were in Australia, he might be forced to undergo “racial vilification counselling”.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Eddie-McGuire-to-undergo-racial-counselling/tabid/417/articleID/299731/Default.aspx

    Comment by Ross — May 30, 2013 @ 7:47 pm

  16. It’s been proven that right wing folk are less intellligent. That’s why all they can cope with for political debate is slogans line ‘not pc’ , ‘nanny state’ blah blah blah.
    Mr Nisbet seems a class specimen.
    How courageous of him to take on the mighty and powerful in his cartoons?
    And his wit…my gosh, biting.

    Comment by Paul — May 30, 2013 @ 7:55 pm

  17. Giovanni,

    You are thinking of relative poverty. Absolute poverty – the level at which people can’t feed themselves properly – is well below NZs benefit levels.

    Comment by Swan — May 30, 2013 @ 7:59 pm

  18. Oh, I seeeee… “relative poverty”. Relative to our massive wealth as a nation. That must be why we have third world diseases and such.

    Okay then.

    Comment by giovanni — May 30, 2013 @ 8:00 pm

  19. @Swan 11. Rent, electricity bills, gas bills….Reading your question makes me think you need to do some research on the topic. May I suggest Bryan Bruce’s documentary ‘Inside Child Poverty’ as a useful start?

    Comment by Paul — May 30, 2013 @ 8:09 pm

  20. Paul,

    You are telling me families literally don’t have enough money for food staples? Do you really believe that is the core issue here, not parental responsibility? Because that is the main issue as far as I can see. Giving kids a couple a weetbix is great, but it doesn’t change the much bigger issues around their family does it.

    Comment by Swan — May 30, 2013 @ 8:23 pm

  21. Colin Espiner is right tho; I’ve been outraged by Nesbit’s cartoons for years. On account of their lack of humour, woeful artistic quality and the fact that Fairfax presumably pay him.

    Comment by Teej — May 30, 2013 @ 8:23 pm

  22. “as far as I can see”

    say no more, son

    Comment by Sacha — May 30, 2013 @ 8:37 pm

  23. …Devoy could be an unexpectedly effective Race Relations Commissioner. If even the totally unqualified, unengaged Devoy thinks you’re a racist then that’s pretty damning.

    The script is that her appointment will draw out such a level of liberal condescension that her views will gain credibility with people whose minds might be amenable to change.

    Rather than the preach to the converted, shout at everyone else approach.

    Keep up the good work.

    Comment by NeilM — May 30, 2013 @ 8:51 pm

  24. Thanks Sacha, three makes it a pattern. You guys are not willing to engage in the debate.

    Comment by Swan — May 30, 2013 @ 8:56 pm

  25. So Swan can we put you in ‘relative poverty’ and see how relative you think it is? If you had a single income on minimum wage trying to pay rent and power with not much left over, what do you think goes first? Yes food. But I guess ignorance is bliss right?

    Comment by max — May 30, 2013 @ 9:00 pm

  26. Swan, I’ll have that debate. Are you seriously saying that the core issue resulting in the “relative” (sic) poverty of thousands, if not tens of thousands, of New Zealand children is because 1000s, if not tens of thousands, of New Zealand parents have ceased to be responsible? If you believe this, then what do you think has been the root cause of such widespread parental delinquency? There must, presumably, be some sort of root cause other than a mass outbreak of similar behaviours manifesting themselves nationwide (the nicer suburbs surprisingly excluded). Ultimately, blaming parents only works when the parental behaviour is an outlier, not when it’s so obviously prevalent.

    Comment by Teej — May 30, 2013 @ 9:27 pm

  27. Swan’s outraged that anyone can possibly suggest that people don’t have enough money for staples like caviar and champagne. He’s never met anyone in such a ludicrous situation! And he sees a pattern! Are you people communists??

    Comment by Judge Holden — May 30, 2013 @ 9:27 pm

  28. The idiocy of Barry Soper –

    In the tweet linked by Max above:
    “So the moral minority are now dictating what cartoonists are allowed to say, what a sorry state this country’s come to when humour is so PC!”

    And 3 hours later:
    “Thanks for all the tweets, fortunately we’re allowed to beg to differ, keep humour alive, and welcome cartoonists making us uncomfortable!”

    So, not “Dictating” after all. Good to see the climbdown, shame that he probably can’t see it himself. A political editor with no grasp of logic and civics. Scary.

    Comment by sammy 2.0 — May 30, 2013 @ 9:40 pm

  29. I’m not “blaming” parents teej. I am saying there is a deeper issue here that isn’t simply about a lack of money or access to food. And that kids going to school hungry is only a symptom of the wider issue.

    Comment by Swan — May 30, 2013 @ 9:50 pm

  30. And what might this wider issue be that mysteriously and disproportionately affect breadline earners, swan?

    Comment by Gregor W — May 30, 2013 @ 11:21 pm

  31. Swan – Given that most people here seem to be agreeing with Giovanni (what money?) could you explain to us what you think the families of children living in poverty (relative or otherwise) are spending money on, where those families are getting said money from and how much of it they get? If you could also factor in general household expenses into the calculation, that would be great. If you want to debate, you should probably set out your case fully first.

    Comment by alex — May 30, 2013 @ 11:39 pm

  32. Just remember all those people yelling PC today will be demanding we refer to the next police chase that makes the news as a “fleeing driver situation”…

    Comment by mike — May 31, 2013 @ 12:39 am

  33. Swan: there’s no debate to be had with people who hold something as an article of faith. They’ll return only variations on “You’re a bad person.”

    Teej, comment 26: Swan isn’t suggesting that, the evidence is. According to MSD, income for those at the bottom is about the same in real terms as it was in the early 1980s. Fixed-line measurements of numbers of households below 60% of the median income show relative poverty has been falling or static for the last 10 years (apart from a kick upwards following the GFC), and proportion of households under the poverty line is also lower than it was 10 or even 20 years ago. And yet we apparently have a problem with increasing numbers of children not being fed properly. If you want to make a case that the increase must be because of a worsening financial situation for low-income families, the available evidence disagrees with you.

    It’s not impossible to come up with theories that do actually fit the evidence. For example, the MSD figures show that, although the proportion of households under the poverty line is lower than it was 20 years ago, the proportion of the country’s children living in such households has undergone a huge increase. I’m no social scientist, but this looks to me more like a family planning problem than a financial one.

    Just remember all those people yelling PC today will be demanding we refer to the next police chase that makes the news as a “fleeing driver situation”…

    Quite possibly, as your example suggests a group of people with a concern for accuracy rather than one with an enthusiasm for euphemisms.

    Comment by Psycho Milt — May 31, 2013 @ 6:54 am

  34. That reminds me of this Tom Scott cartoon. I don’t recall this provoking much, if any, outrage. Then again, there are no Maoris depicted.

    http://timgoz.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/tom-scott-cartoon-that-makes-sense.html

    Comment by Ross — May 31, 2013 @ 7:37 am

  35. More rope swan?

    Wouldn’t the smoke take on a different hue if the characters in the cartoon were Maori?

    Comment by costansa — May 31, 2013 @ 9:53 am

  36. “So Swan can we put you in ‘relative poverty’ and see how relative you think it is?”

    I don’t know about Swan, but I’ve lived in ‘relative poverty’ – the Student Allowance + Student Loan is capped lower than the benefit (or at least it was when I was at university). This “can’t survive” mantra seems to be largely coming from affluent lifestyle blockers who can’t imagine living on less than $50,000 a year. It is well possible to live on $170 a week (I’m speaking from experience here). It’s not luxury, sure, but it’s not poverty either. Raising three kids on that could be an issue, but I was under the impression that the benefit scaled with family size?

    Comment by enjiner — May 31, 2013 @ 10:14 am

  37. It is well possible to live on $170 a week (I’m speaking from experience here)

    To take just one example, did you ever go to the dentist?

    Comment by sammy 2.0 — May 31, 2013 @ 10:22 am

  38. OK, fair call, I only went once in three years. I may have overstated my case – it’s subsistence living for sure – but it’s enough for regular meals. I take your point that living on that for four years is different from living on that permanently.

    Comment by enjiner — May 31, 2013 @ 10:35 am

  39. enjiner – In my younger days taking a first run at University, I recall not eating some-days. When you ran out of money, you ran out, but I always knew it was temporary.
    Not too much of a hardship when you are young and relatively healthy but it would be soul destroying if you had kids and you couldn’t see light at the end of the tunnel

    Comment by Gregor W — May 31, 2013 @ 10:43 am

  40. …but it would be soul destroying if you had kids and you couldn’t see light at the end of the tunnel

    That’s exactly the point. I did a couple of years on the dole or special work as a yoof – $35 per week unemployment benefit, $17.50 on rent, $10 on food, $7.50 left over for everything else. No phone, no car, no insurance etc – certainly no trips to the dentist. Things like clothes you bought from the op shop at the times you had work. Enormous expertise was developed at figuring out alcohol/price ratios of the stock in bottle stores.

    All of which made not having a kid right now a vital motto to live by. In the absence of certainty about use of the pill or a condom to wear, coming in her cunt was a seriously bad idea. Contraception was one luxury we didn’t ever do without because doing without could make things so, so much worse. At some point, wasters seem to have tossed this essential piece of bludger wisdom and come to regard not having a job as a reasonable foundation on which to start a very large family – the results are unsurprising.

    Comment by Psycho Milt — May 31, 2013 @ 11:23 am

  41. All of which made not having a kid right now a vital motto to live by.

    Sure.
    But that conveniently ignores the reality of social norms for different groups – but simply, brown people statistically have more kids than white people – and cyclical unemployment that disproportionally affects lower skilled, lower paid people far more than those with transferable skills – again, more often brown people than not.

    Comment by Gregor W — May 31, 2013 @ 11:36 am

  42. Not having kids. Right. Bring out the cant feed em don’t breed em arguments.

    1. What if you have kids then you end up in poverty (say one of your kids is really sick and one of the parents has to give up work to look after them – hard to live on one income in Auckland esp. If that income is a low one plus you now have lots of medical expenses only part of which are covered by the state.)
    2. Are you implying people who work in areas that our society doesn’t value much don’t have a right to have a family? Because that’s kinda harsh.

    It’s very different being a student and knowing that your prospects will change in a few years, versus the soul destroying experience of being poor and seeing no light a the end of the tunnel.

    Comment by MeToo — May 31, 2013 @ 12:11 pm

  43. …[p]ut simply, brown people statistically have more kids than white people

    Statistics never made anybody pregnant. If your culture makes you statistically more likely to do something really, really stupid, potential education-based solutions suggest themselves.

    MeToo: I know this is a tough one for liberals to get a grip on, but my personal experience isn’t offered as an illustration of the experience of every single person ever, it’s offered as an illustration of what things are like for people in that particular situation. Leaping in with the ‘gotcha’ that my comment didn’t cover this completely different situation isn’t anything more than a statement of the obvious.

    As to the difference between being a student and being poor and seeing no light at the end of the tunnel, like I said I was on unemployment benefit and occasionally subsidised temporary work. That isn’t exactly a stepping-stone to greater things. My prospects did change, but they certainly wouldn’t have if I’d started producing children on a regular basis.

    Comment by Psycho Milt — May 31, 2013 @ 12:51 pm

  44. If your culture makes you statistically more likely to do something really, really stupid, potential education-based solutions suggest themselves.

    Agreed. But to make the issue and its resolution uni-dimensional – poor people (or people who might become poor) shouldn’t have children – is equally stupid.
    If people were completely rational about maximizing their quality of life in monetary terms, no-one would ever have kids.

    Comment by Gregor W — May 31, 2013 @ 1:03 pm

  45. that conveniently ignores the reality of social norms for different groups – but simply, brown people statistically have more kids than white people

    Members of the Maori and PI community are also, statistically, more likely to be smokers…

    Comment by Phil — May 31, 2013 @ 1:18 pm

  46. Members of the Maori and PI community are also, statistically, more likely to be smokers…

    They’re also more likely to suffer diabetes and morbid obesity.
    However, does that make them inherently terrible parents – specifically, worse than poor, fat, white smokers with kids?
    Because to me, that’s the fairly straightforward subtext of the cartoon.

    Comment by Gregor W — May 31, 2013 @ 1:59 pm

  47. Nisbet gives himself away by his use of of “PC”. A meaningless pejorative used by the logically bereft to bolster a a hopelessly untenable position.

    The editors of the print media obviously thought that the graphic was clever, witty, funny, apposite. Yeah right!

    Says a lot about both the editors and their perception of their readership and their region.

    Comment by peterlepaysan — June 1, 2013 @ 8:10 pm

  48. I’m not sure anti-zionist cartoons pass the racist bar, TImG_Oz.
    None of these cartoon are specifically ant-Semitic.

    Comment by Gregor W — June 2, 2013 @ 9:11 pm

  49. I disagree Gregor. The Tom Scott example was the most overtly repulsive; the Hodgson cartoon whilst not racist, offended because it belittled the Holocaust in an attempt to score cheap political points; Evans is a repeat offender – he was sacked in 2002 by the NZ Herald after complaints, and now publishes in a couple of minor papers (Chch Press and Manawatu Standard). You have to understand there was no preemptive reason to his cartoon, and no relevance to the Jewish symbology he used to any current events at the time.

    Specifically Tom Scott’s cartoon, there was a bit of a discussion on Kiwiblog today. Here’s some comment that I am reproducing as to whether it is “Anti -Semitic” or “Anti – Israel”:

    Yes, of course “In the pocket” means to be corrupt. In the cartoon, we don’t see the “face” of this big “Jewish” thing. Surely its not the tiny state of Israel, but some other bigger secret organisation (hence why we can’t see the face).

    What does it mean? It’s not clear at all. But, there is a history of this kind of imagery in Anti-semitism. Through the years, all the major anti-semitic movements state that the Jews are controlling the world through secret cartels, controlling the media and controlling the governments.

    What exactly is Tom Scott trying to say? It’s not even factual as Jews are the one pushing for peace with a two state solution.

    Now, Tom Scott’s motives may not have been one of racial vilification. But they are a hell of a lot worse than Eddie McGuire’s in as fact that Eddie got tongue-tied, but this was a clear attack!

    Comment by TimG_Oz — June 2, 2013 @ 9:44 pm

  50. It’s not even factual as Jews are the one pushing for peace with a two state solution.

    Interesting take TimG_Oz, particularly given Abbas’ statements of a day ago.

    He’s made it pretty clear for some time that a two state solution is on the cards, provided that the IDF desist from confiscating more land for ‘security’ purposes and that the illegal settlers currently in East Jerusalem are moved on.

    Surely its not the tiny state of Israel….

    I would suggest it’s pretty accurate to describe Obama and his fellow travelers – in fact a huge proportion of elected officials in the US – are in the ‘back pocket’ of AIPAC. One only needs to take a cursory look at the Congress and Senate voting records – leaving aside the UN voting record – to determine that.

    Comment by Gregor W — June 2, 2013 @ 10:44 pm

  51. Fantastic Gregor. Can you send the link to Abbas’ statements, as I must have missed it. Given that every peace offering included giving back land (2000,2001,2002, 2006, 2012) was rejected by Palestinians, then I’m sure this will be different. I’m all for a two state solution, with a viable Palestinian state next to Israel.

    On your second point – can you point to any corruption evidence? I can point to a lot more evidence of anti-semitic accusations of Jews controlling the world governments, Jews controlling media, Protocols of Zion, Jews controlling this, that and the other. If Tom Scott didn’t mean for that message, then you think he could have made that more clear, right?

    Comment by TimG_Oz — June 2, 2013 @ 11:04 pm

  52. “… If Tom Scott didn’t mean for that message, then you think he could have made that more clear, right..?”

    The message is quite clear – that US foreign policy is controlled to a ridiculous extent by the Israel lobby in Washington. Only a moron – or a mendacious person seeking to shut down any criticism of Israel by labelling it “anti-semitic – would miss Scott’s point. In the United States this tactic of hysterically labelling anyone who dares question the fact the Israel is the tail that wags the US foreign policy dog works a treat. I have spoken to people in DC who are actually frightened to criticise Israel lest they be immeiately labelled a racist. Now, TimG_Oz may be labouring under the Luskian mis-apprehension that NZ wishes to be a willing vassal of the USA in all aspects of our world view, but we are not and I am not frightened to call Israel what it is – a racist apartheid state that is commiting a slow-motion genocide against the Palestinian people.

    Comment by Sanctuary — June 2, 2013 @ 11:33 pm

  53. Too afraid to use your real name though, it seems. In many ways you have proven my point. Thanks :-)
    I guess if you don’t support the two state solution as I do, then you’ll just have to continue to support a Hamas’ vision violent solution which removes all Israeli citizens by force.

    Thankfully Metiria Turei agrees with me, and supports a complaint against this cartoon, as I do of the Al Nisbet cartoon. And she also recognises that we can have differing political views. Good night.

    Comment by TimG_Oz — June 3, 2013 @ 12:05 am

  54. Can you send the link to Abbas’ statements, as I must have missed it

    From the J Post and Pravda.
    Context from The Atlantic

    On your second point – can you point to any corruption evidence?

    The Katz-Steiner transcript.

    Comment by Gregor W — June 3, 2013 @ 12:37 am

  55. Well done Gregor W. I had already dismissed TimG_Oz as troll whose main purpose is to run interference for mass murder.

    Comment by Sanctuary — June 3, 2013 @ 11:12 am

  56. Thanks Gregor, but to me it seems like Abbas is just stonewalling again. Maps with land swaps were provided in 2004 and 2006. The swaps were roughly 50:50. The Pallyleaks saga showed that a large amount of the Palestinian population were not prepared to accept a Secular state of Israel alongside Palestine, so it appears he has a lot of convincing to do. I thought your link showed this perfectly as Hamas will never accept it, and will effectively start civil war before they recognise Abbas as a negotiator. Interestingly enough, the Arab population of East Jerusalem are offered Israeli citizenship, but mostly refuse to take it up.

    Your argument on corruption, however, is weak compared to the massive volume of talk of Jewish World Conspiracy. I still hear the line that Jews orchestrated 9/11 as an inside Job fairly often.

    Poor Sanctuary, I come here effectively using my real name to discuss cartoons, and you have the gall accuse me of trolling. Running interference over the cartoon argument with your talk of “mass murder”.

    You idiot. Did you know that I worked with PeaceNow, and were involved in Dialogues between secular Arabs and Jews? My cousin volunteered in Palestinian refugee camps.
    Go run away with your stupid Working Party mantras. They are not helping any cause.

    Just for you I updated my blog, here’s some simple explanations for you:

    Natan Sharansky’s 3D test of anti-Israel Arguments: http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-sharansky-f04.htm
    Apartheid explained in simple terms for you: http://timgoz.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/some-simplified-graphics-for-simplified.html

    Comment by TimG_Oz — June 4, 2013 @ 9:04 am

  57. I had already dismissed TimG_Oz as troll whose main purpose is to run interference for mass murder.

    You missed “threadjacking” out of your otherwise excellent summation.

    Comment by Psycho Milt — June 4, 2013 @ 10:07 am

  58. The swaps were roughly 50:50.

    While the swaps may have been 50:50, they were premised on a Palestinian state maintaining roughly 28% of its 1948 territory. Less that 25% of that 28% made up the 50:50 swap.

    It’s mischievous to posit that the result would have been two states, roughly proportional, within the internationally recognised 1967 borders of Israel and each with continuous territorial integrity. That has never been on the table and is the only basis – recognised as such by the UN – for a long term resolution.

    The Pallyleaks saga showed that a large amount of the Palestinian population were not prepared to accept a Secular state of Israel alongside Palestine

    Entirely predictable given it revealed enormous concessions to Israel around the right of return for Palestinian refugees, PA co-operation with Israel in its war against Hamas in Gaza in 2009 and complete capitulation on the status of East Jerusalem and the Temple Mount.

    It’s also deceptive to pop the work “secular” in there given that it frames your position in religious terms when the issue is political.

    Interestingly enough, the Arab population of East Jerusalem are offered Israeli citizenship, but mostly refuse to take it up.

    Quite simply because if they do, East Jerusalem becomes de-facto part of Israel which is an untenable position to most Palestinians.

    Your argument on corruption, however, is weak compared to the massive volume of talk of Jewish World Conspiracy

    An odd definition of a weak argument given that my link refers to a transcript with actual names of elected public officials whereas your “massive volume” is supposition; an existential threat based on the fantasies of cranks.

    Comment by Gregor W — June 4, 2013 @ 10:44 am


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