The Dim-Post

August 8, 2014

Sigh

Filed under: Politics — danylmc @ 9:03 am

Via the Herald:

An Internet-Mana Party video clip of a frenzied crowd cheering on Kim Dotcom and chanting “F*** John Key” is being compared to Nazi Germany propaganda – although a political marketing expert concedes it could appeal to youth.

Auckland University political marketing specialist Jennifer Lees-Marshment said the video’s rhetoric about revolution and changing the Government looked effective, but “reminds me of propaganda, chanting-type campaigning more reminiscent of Hitler and fascism [in Nazi Germany] than New Zealand in the 21st century”.

The actual footage shows Kim Dotcom urging people to vote and promising to give them a hug, which isn’t something I remember from Triumph of the Will. I think what these commentators and marketing experts are trying to say with all this gibberish about Nazis is (a) that footage of political events showing hundreds of young people denigrating the Prime Minister is a new phenomenon in the New Zealand political experience, and it frightens them (b) they think the young people at these events are victims of ‘false consciousness’ – they don’t really dislike the Prime Minister, they’ve just been brainwashed! and (c) Kim Dotcom is a German, so hey, Hitler.

My problem with Internet/Mana has always been that it will probably scare more voters towards National than it wins from youth voters. I might be wrong. We’ll see on election day. But their ‘Fuck John Key’ ad and the horrified reaction to it is pretty much Exhibit A in my ‘scare the middle-class horses’ hypothesis. I also kind-of-doubt this ad and Laila Harre’s defense of it – that it shows ‘young people expressing themselves creatively’ – is going to appeal to very many young voters, given that it makes young voters look like bogans.

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57 Comments »

  1. While of course I don’t endorse young people shouting rude words in public and startling middle class people, I did enjoy how much it seemed to exasperate Guyon Espiner on Morning Report today, interviewing Laila Harre. His monocle almost popped out into his Earl Grey as he spluttered his indignation. This sort of thing didn’t bally happen back in his day, what?

    Comment by Ethan Tucker — August 8, 2014 @ 9:12 am

  2. Yawn. Such chanting happened in the anti Vietnam war demonstrations and at demos when Nats introduced student loans.

    Comment by Andrew R — August 8, 2014 @ 9:15 am

  3. A German politician leads a crowd in a demagogic chant in a sweaty beer hall and demands that a politician of jewish descent be extradited. And proudly ensures that the event has as wide a distribution and publicity as possible. How could anyone possibly link that to Nazi Germany?

    I guess the episode does prove the English contention – that I had never entirely understood before – that Germans (and many contributors to the Dim Post, including the proprietor) have no sense of irony.

    Comment by Tinakori — August 8, 2014 @ 9:25 am

  4. Kiwis have rather lost their political mojo compared to the pigs heads on sticks at Muldoon demos and “Burn Shipley Burn” flaming effigies in Queen St. so good on the Internet Party partiers in this old guys opinion.
    A lot of teens to 20s and 30s know why they have thumping great student loans and have to head offshore for work and they are not all compliant about it. National’s vote has to be considered peaked and has nowhere to go except down, even if only slightly.

    Comment by Alec Morgan — August 8, 2014 @ 9:27 am

  5. Yes, because Nazi rallies had people chanting “Fuck Winston Churchill”. And no political rally has ever in NZ before had someone enthuse let’s change the government. So it’s just like that.

    Comment by MeToo — August 8, 2014 @ 9:27 am

  6. Just popping in to take offence on behalf of bogans everywhere.

    Comment by James Stephenson — August 8, 2014 @ 9:27 am

  7. Bogans are cool these days. One of those comfortable in a Grey Lynn villa having watched Outrageous Fortunes things.

    Comment by NeilM — August 8, 2014 @ 9:29 am

  8. footage of political events showing hundreds of young people denigrating the Prime Minister is a new phenomenon in the New Zealand political experience

    Umm… No?

    Comment by Phil — August 8, 2014 @ 9:32 am

  9. Screw it. Seriously. The ridiculous reaction to this video and the god winning, concern trolling, atrocious and mendacious reactions from the usual suspects had solidified my intention to vote IMP as a big FU to the lot of you. I voted Nat/Act in 96 in a fit of youthful rural conservative know nothingism and since then have voted lab/lab lab/lab lab/green lab/green lab/nzf but over the last couple of years have increasingly felt like throwing a brick through a bank window would be useful. But now, screw it. Count this 36 year old father of two, owner of two properties, 4wd driving, private sector consultant, blue rural seat dweller as so totally F’n peeved enough to vote to cast my vote for chaos. Burn it all down, just burn it all down and start again.

    Comment by jonocarpenter — August 8, 2014 @ 9:49 am

  10. As boorish as it might sound, I’d say the video owes more to Johnny Rotten than the Third Reich.

    Comment by Kumara Republic (@kumararepublic) — August 8, 2014 @ 9:50 am

  11. As boorish as it might sound, I’d say the video owes more to Johnny Rotten than the Third Reich.

    Yeah. I think if pretty much any opposition party managed to rally hundreds of youth voters it would look like this but Internet/Mana happened to be the first party to do so.

    Comment by danylmc — August 8, 2014 @ 9:55 am

  12. “As boorish as it might sound, I’d say the video owes more to Johnny Rotten than the Third Reich.”

    Yes, and I note the Rockenrol people have Tiki Taane as a draw card, famous for singing a rude word about the Police. I wonder what those events will be compared to – hopefully a concert aimed at young people and not Jonestown.

    Seriously, our political marketing academic community needs to spend more time with 19 year olds.(Do they do take own tutorials or are these delegated to minions?)

    Comment by MeToo — August 8, 2014 @ 10:03 am

  13. I get you Danyl. And kinda agree. Such activity is worth a percent or two over the campaign to National, and a percent or two over the campaign to IMP.

    However, the *huge* potential upside of this is that for that large pool of voters that want a “fuck the politicians” vote, and who often vote for Winston Peters, this gives them a viable alternative. It remains to be seen if it is taken up, but if it is, then it represents a threat to Peters party making the threshold and thus the National Party’s ability to form a government.

    Comment by George — August 8, 2014 @ 10:04 am

  14. I don’t think a single New Zealand First voter will switch their vote to Internet/Mana.

    Comment by danylmc — August 8, 2014 @ 10:05 am

  15. I don’t think a single New Zealand First voter will switch their vote to Internet/Mana.

    I also think that hardly a single core NZF voter will switch their vote to IMP. Those people are reasonably solid, and most of them are older and white and conservative. But the NZF party has always picked up votes along the side from a disaffected anti-politics constituency which includes younger, browner, and more politically radical voters and occasional voters. In a good year, that gets NZF 7-9 MPs.

    Comment by George — August 8, 2014 @ 10:23 am

  16. “I don’t think a single New Zealand First voter will switch their vote to Internet/Mana.”

    Except that #9 is claiming to be doing just that

    Comment by minimalistme — August 8, 2014 @ 10:27 am

  17. Actually, one my mates who always protest votes (was NZ First, then lately the Maori Party) was going to vote IMP, but then discovered John Minto was on the IMP list so wasn’t going to votee IMP and since this video came out is back voting for the IMP. So that is another ex-NZ First protest voter…

    Comment by Sanctuary — August 8, 2014 @ 10:29 am

  18. Having the benefit of actually knowing lots of “young people” – they enthusiastically agreed with the sentiments of the audience and think it is great and are all voting – and not necessarily for IMP.

    Comment by Paddy in Kiwiland — August 8, 2014 @ 10:49 am

  19. #9 is absolutely claiming that, with the voting record as stated including voting NZF to help them hit 5% in the last election, a history of occassional Labour party membership, labour and green pamplet delivery in the last two elections, and a general approval Red Cunliffe per his primary run and early leadership. I cite family history as justification also, as my father, born in the depression, a Baptist of the Auckland Tabernacle under Dr Hodge who supported strike breaking in ’51, but generally a Labour man, voted McGillicudy and NZF in the last 15 years of his life in frustration with the two majro parties.

    I hold no party memberships at the present, have attended exactly one Labour LEC meeting when I was a member, and am otherwise not part of any agitprop/astroturf/comms strategy/talking points plotter, but am simply a frustrated centre left voter. My sum total engagement with KDC was seeing his cameo in the Basement Theatre Christmas show a couple of years ago and I tend to side with Sanctuary’s analysis of him as a radicalised millionaire 1%er class traitor and crook of the third order.

    But one thing he isnt, is beige, let alone grey. And this current government is nothing but the latter, and couldnt even aspire to having enough imagination to be the former. You know, during the first land war of 1845-46 the business men of Auckland were selling guns and powder to Hone Heke and Kawiti, and nothing has changed. Perhaps as middle New Zealand watches its modern day chiefs sell the country down the river, they might come to reflect on how Maori might feel after watching many of their own do likewise in the 19th century. As many of us wonder about our own loss of sovereignty through trade deals and foreign ownership, perhaps we might spare a thought for what 174 years of it might feel like.

    karma is a bitch.

    Comment by jonocarpenter — August 8, 2014 @ 11:00 am

  20. Better a bogan than a Nat.
    Green policies have always most closely matched what I believe is right for us. As with the bigger parties they have a (growing?) share of career politicians. They’re the ones that give me the shits.

    Comment by Josh — August 8, 2014 @ 11:43 am

  21. Poor old Laila’s having to work hard earn her $150k, isn’t she?

    It makes it pretty hard for her to argue the importance of respect (c.f. the Sugardaddy quote), or to look like the leader of a serious, policy-focused party.

    Comment by rickrowling — August 8, 2014 @ 11:57 am

  22. I’m not sure that chanting “Fuck John Key” really is any sort of political engagement.

    It’s a long way from Free Nelson Mandela. A long way down hill,

    Comment by NeilM — August 8, 2014 @ 11:57 am

  23. I blame the current light-handed policing approach.

    Back in the day there was riot police with long batons keeping the chanting to a decorous Amandla Awethu.

    Comment by NeilM — August 8, 2014 @ 12:16 pm

  24. that’s not quite right Neil, at least not for chch where we had the classic “4,3,2,1 stick your baton up your bum”

    Comment by John Small (@smalltorquer) — August 8, 2014 @ 12:29 pm

  25. Back in the day, it was Gerry ‘Brownshirt’ Brownlee along with his sidekick Cameron “Whaleoil’ Slater who were dragging ‘interjecters’ from a public meeting and throwing them down the stairs

    Comment by ghostwhowalksnz — August 8, 2014 @ 12:40 pm

  26. I think if KDC is standing on the policy platforms of fucking or extraditing Key then, well, *sigh* I suppose people who can’t understand serious politics need to accept that they have some real issues about being adult and middle-class and need to wake up and smell the coffee.

    Schadenfreude is a German notion, after all.

    Comment by Lee Clark — August 8, 2014 @ 12:48 pm

  27. “It’s a long way from Free Nelson Mandela.”. Must be time to replace that onion.

    Comment by chris — August 8, 2014 @ 12:53 pm

  28. I think it was pretty clear the ‘Fuck John Key’ was well underway before KDC spoke

    Comment by Josh — August 8, 2014 @ 12:57 pm

  29. The actual footage shows Kim Dotcom urging people to vote and promising to give them a hug, which isn’t something I remember from Triumph of the Will.

    I doubt these purported ‘experts’ have ever seen Triumph of the Will, if this reminds them of Nazis. For future reference, would-be politics ‘experts,’ a bunch of pissed wankers shouting chants isn’t ‘reminiscent of Hitler and Fascism’ just because there’s a Jerry on the stage. As Kumara Republic pointed out above, it’s more reminiscent of a punk gig – or maybe a UK football game. Mind you, the ‘experts’ won’t have seen any of those, either.

    Comment by Psycho Milt — August 8, 2014 @ 1:10 pm

  30. I doubt these purported ‘experts’ have ever seen Triumph of the Will

    You never know. A copy was imported and screened by the NZ Catholic Church, in that brief heady period when such things were seen as healthy. There were letters in the Listener in the late 80s from those who recalled seeing it as schoolchildren.

    Comment by Joe W — August 8, 2014 @ 1:27 pm

  31. I’m sorry Milt I refuse to take advice about ‘experts’ from one who uses a swastika as his avatar..

    Comment by Lee Clark — August 8, 2014 @ 1:31 pm

  32. I doubt any punks turned up at a gig to cheer on a rich dude who bought his own vanity political party.

    Maybe football, but Paris Saint-Germain rather than ManU.

    Comment by NeilM — August 8, 2014 @ 1:42 pm

  33. Lee Clark – It isn’t a swastika. If you don’t know the difference between Crass and the Nazis you really, really ought to STFU.

    Comment by Nick R — August 8, 2014 @ 2:12 pm

  34. A copy was imported and screened by the NZ Catholic Church, in that brief heady period when such things were seen as healthy.

    Probably went down a treat with the Church – all those strong, clean-cut boys and girls engaging in healthy outdoor activities under the guidance of appropriate authorities and instructed in the benefits of hard work and the perils of communism. What better message could the diocese ask for?

    Comment by Psycho Milt — August 8, 2014 @ 4:18 pm

  35. Money swears

    Comment by NeilM — August 8, 2014 @ 4:29 pm

  36. Actually, one my mates who always protest votes (was NZ First, then lately the Maori Party) was going to vote IMP, but then discovered John Minto was on the IMP list so wasn’t going to vote IMP and since this video came out is back voting for the IMP. So that is another ex-NZ First protest voter…

    Surely the ultimate protest vote would be one for Minto? I can’t think of a better way to give the big “Fuck you” to the political establishment than letting that dude loose on the premises. The comedy value alone…!

    Comment by Gregor W — August 8, 2014 @ 4:59 pm

  37. Perpetually confused as to why people think Mana cares or should care about scaring the middle class horses–not sure if that’s what you’re implying here Danyl, but given that the middle class never has been and never will be Mana’s base, they’re better off trying to ignore them, not appease them. If potential Mana voters do get scared off by this video, it’s going to be towards the polite Greens; either way, it’s not a net gain for the right.

    Comment by Fox — August 8, 2014 @ 5:25 pm

  38. Nick – *sigh*.

    Comment by Lee Clark — August 8, 2014 @ 5:30 pm

  39. Surely the ultimate protest vote would be one for Minto?

    My thought also. The thing that’s come closest to persuading me to vote I/M is the thought of the National Party front bench having to sit down and be addressed at length and on multiple occasions by Mr Minto. Positively heartwarming, it is.

    Comment by Psycho Milt — August 8, 2014 @ 6:44 pm

  40. I recall the anti-benefit cuts in the early 90s chants like
    Two, Four, Six, Eight
    Bolger’s Head on a Plate

    F**K John Key is fairly soft

    Comment by Ian Tinkler — August 8, 2014 @ 7:01 pm

  41. OK, I know everybody thinks I’m just being a joyless pedant, but did I imagine it back in March when Danyl was saying that he thought it was “creepy” and “bad” that Dotcom owned a copy of Mein Kampf, but now he’s poo-pooing all the “Dotcom is a Nazi” memes as silly?

    Comment by kalvarnsen — August 8, 2014 @ 7:11 pm

  42. OK, I know everybody thinks I’m just being a joyless pedant…

    That would depend on your plans for when you’ve finally nailed this public menace. Perhaps you’ll confound expectations with a triumphal procession draped in his hide, as Rodney did with Winston back in 2008?

    Comment by Joe W — August 8, 2014 @ 7:22 pm

  43. @Joe W: Ah yes, let me guess, I should leave poor Danyl alone and devote all my energies to overturning John Key or Al Qaeda?

    Comment by kalvarnsen — August 8, 2014 @ 7:23 pm

  44. “Perpetually confused as to why people think Mana cares or should care about scaring the middle class horses–not sure if that’s what you’re implying here Danyl, but given that the middle class never has been and never will be Mana’s base, they’re better off trying to ignore them, not appease them.

    Without trying in anyway to answer on behalf of the proprietor, my interpretation is that Danyl is looking at the strategic picture and calculating that IMP will do two things – steal young/anarchic/bitter/twisted/stupid voters from other bits of the left and scare middle class liberal left wing voters away from Labour (and even maybe the Greens, though there are very few liberals there) towards either National or parties that can coalesce with National. Not a single middle class liberal need vote for IMP for that scenario to come true.

    Comment by Tinakori — August 8, 2014 @ 7:42 pm

  45. Don’t talk nonsense, the proper terminology is ‘fuck’ him or ‘bring him down’ . God, you’re so 1939,,,,,

    Comment by Lee Clark — August 8, 2014 @ 7:48 pm

  46. @kalvarnson – just idle curiosity. Please, carry on.

    Comment by Joe W — August 8, 2014 @ 7:49 pm

  47. Minto.

    There’s reasons Farrar and Hooten are ever so busy squashing those young peoples’ free speech – at least according to the friends of those young peoples’ grand parents.

    One is Minto. Not exactly the new generation of politically aware youth.

    Two is Minto. He’ll be too busy annoying Israeli tennis players.

    Three is Harre. Not exactly the new generation of a rejuvenated left.

    I’m not surprised Labour is putting a bit of distance between them and IMP. They, at least, are out to prevent a fourth term Key govt.

    Comment by NeilM — August 8, 2014 @ 9:49 pm

  48. Ironically, if fighting the govt because it is claimed they suppress of speech, it might be more accurate to state ‘at least they allowed to say they are out to prevent a fourth Key govrrnment.” But of course engaging in free speech in elections is often a sticky issue, some have even passed laws to try and regulate it.

    Comment by Lee Clark — August 9, 2014 @ 6:38 am

  49. Tinakori #44 – You’ll find there are a fair number of liberals in the GP, particularly on the back of the strategic shift ’07-’08 to expand beyond their traditional base.

    The real risk in that sense to the GP is not IMP but a genuine liberal alternative. In the medium term though, that vote capture is fairly safe while the ‘liberal’ political spectrum remains (weirdly) occupied by ACT in the public consciousness.

    Comment by Gregor W — August 9, 2014 @ 12:42 pm

  50. OT completely, but when are the Greens going to put up billboards? Every other party going at it hammer and tongs. Living in the Hutt Valley, this may be a local anomaly. but have noticed lack in Wgtn as well. At least Mana/IP are putting effort into it. Do the Greens assume that they just need to sleepwalk to their 15%?

    Comment by Leopold — August 9, 2014 @ 5:37 pm

  51. No Green billboards in Auckland yet. Partner signed up online to volunteer for them weeks ago and has not even received an email confirming receipt of his application.

    Comment by MeToo — August 9, 2014 @ 10:13 pm

  52. This failure to organise the erection of billboards is a sure sign that the Greens are chronically disorganised and divided, and thus incapable of governing this country

    Hey guys I did a Danyl impression

    Comment by kalvarnsen — August 10, 2014 @ 11:13 am

  53. Sorry k. You lost me at ‘erection’,

    Comment by Lee Clark — August 10, 2014 @ 6:32 pm

  54. Why do people assume NZF would go with National? Winston went Labour last time, and seems to still like to be “anti-establishment”, where Key certainly represents establishment. Is it just his well known antipathy towards the Greens, and the fact Labour couldn’t form a govt without the Greens? I’d have thought National would be quite happy to see NZF fall below the threshold – effectively that means the wasted votes get split between left and right, which would probably be enough for National to govern.

    Comment by PaulL — August 12, 2014 @ 11:12 am

  55. Winston does have a pretty serious dislike for the Greens, but I don’t think it’s any stronger than ACT’s dislike for the Maori Party, and that didn’t stop them from both supporting the National party.

    Comment by kalvarnsen — August 12, 2014 @ 11:35 am

  56. Winston’s previous form would indicate he leans National, not on policy but simple mathematics. A Nat-NZF coalition could probably govern without a third party, so he’s more likely to get NZF policy passed. A potential Lab-Green-NZF-IMP government puts Winston in third spot with two other very vocal and demanding coalition partners competing for policy.

    Comment by Phil — August 12, 2014 @ 12:01 pm

  57. Winston made some soothing noises about being concerned about the environment on one of those tv debates in the weekend.

    Why would he go with Labour? Because it would be a first term government. If he goes with National it’s a third term government in its death throes. He did that twice before (signed up with a third term govt) and it didn’t end happily.

    Comment by MeToo — August 12, 2014 @ 3:16 pm


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