The Dim-Post

June 1, 2012

New Zealand’s foremost left-wing political commentator

Filed under: media — danylmc @ 10:31 am

(For reasons which have never been made clear to me) Chris Trotter is often sold as the voice of the New Zealand left – there’s a theory going around that this confirms the institutional right-wing bias of the New Zealand media, in that their principle advocate of left-wing values is a bewildered old crack-pot – so I’d just like to put it out there that Gordon Campbell is ‘New Zealand’s foremost left-wing commentator’.

77 Comments »

  1. “Bewildered old crackpot”???!!! Awesome…

    Comment by MGK — June 1, 2012 @ 10:34 am

  2. Chris Trotter is a useful idiot. He’s a leftie who spends most of his time attacking other lefties and only occasionally expounding – contradictory – leftwing ideals. It makes him a rich source of material for the Right with the bonus that what he says is more ‘legitimate’ because it comes from ‘within the Left’. Which is why they love him so.

    Bryce Edwards is in much the same vein. Although, to be fair, Edwards may have been playing a long game. He built his profile by slagging off everyone else on the Left as not left enough, but now he’s got the bully pulpit he’s using it to be much more critical of National … clever … or maybe he’s just a reef-fish, turning with the tide.

    Comment by Deano — June 1, 2012 @ 10:53 am

  3. True dat. As far as arguments go, there’s more analysis and persuasion to Gordon Campbell’s output than Chris Trotter’s polemic.

    Comment by Will de Cleene — June 1, 2012 @ 10:53 am

  4. Gordon Campbell is not really at the fore. And certainly not most fore. He might be the best, but that’s not really the same thing.

    Comment by Graeme Edgeler — June 1, 2012 @ 10:54 am

  5. Gordon Campbell analyses things through the self-censoring verboten lens of class, which makes him completely unacceptable to the likes of, for example, Kathryn Ryan as a source of left wing opinion on politics.

    Comment by Sanctuary — June 1, 2012 @ 10:59 am

  6. Amen

    Comment by Dylan Horrocks — June 1, 2012 @ 11:01 am

  7. C’mon, Danyl’s obviously fishing here. “No, it’s not – it’s you!”. *genuflects*

    Nice try. But the answer’s still Gordon Campbell.

    Comment by sammy 2.0 — June 1, 2012 @ 11:08 am

  8. “While the current government likes to think it is best represented by John Key, he is so often only the fix-it guy who comes around afterwards. On a day to day basis, McCullyism is the real modus operandi of this administration.”

    that made me grin that did. . When you look at who the right wing commentators want their opposition to be, it makes sense to hold Trotter up as the ideal I suppose. Campbell’s work is usually well written and well reasoned. I find anyway.

    Comment by ben — June 1, 2012 @ 11:10 am

  9. C’mon, Danyl’s obviously fishing here. “No, it’s not – it’s you!”. *genuflects*

    I’m number four.

    Comment by danylmc — June 1, 2012 @ 11:16 am

  10. I am not a number, I am a free man.

    Comment by Graeme Edgeler — June 1, 2012 @ 11:40 am

  11. I don’t understand all this lefty hate for CT. But then again, maybe that’s cos I’m no lefty.

    The man is old skool, white working class, there IS an alternative, Labour. Yes, he doesn’t jump onto the identity politics bandwagon and probably isn’t too liberally progressive. But bewildered old crackpot is a bit much isn’t it?

    In the interests of playing the ball rather than the man here Danyl, may I invite why you think he is such a cracked pot? What am I misssing here.

    Comment by The Baron — June 1, 2012 @ 11:52 am

  12. Don’t you mean “principal” advocate? Obviously a victim of large class sizes.

    Comment by Ross — June 1, 2012 @ 12:21 pm

  13. Sorry, which one was the bewildered old crackpot again?

    And I’d say that when sanctuary is really up on his ranting horse, he is fairly high up the list.

    Comment by insider — June 1, 2012 @ 12:59 pm

  14. 9.C’mon, Danyl’s obviously fishing here. “No, it’s not – it’s you!”. *genuflects*

    I’m number four.

    No, Alex Pettyfer is number four.

    Comment by Phil — June 1, 2012 @ 1:00 pm

  15. But seriously, I think of Trotter as being the political commentator for political commentators.
    Maybe it’s deliberate, but Trotter’s championing of ‘Wiatakere Man’ seems directly at odds with his style of writing – all the Cicero and Sun Tzu is rarely accessible to those of use that are seeking practical living in the modern age.

    Comment by Phil — June 1, 2012 @ 1:06 pm

  16. “I’m number four.”

    You’re left wing?

    I thought you were more of a results-focused pragmatist not bound by outdated partisan concepts of political groupthink.

    Comment by Hugh — June 1, 2012 @ 1:27 pm

  17. “I’m number four.”

    1: Gordon Campbell
    2: Shelley Bridgeman (unintentionally)
    3: Mickey Savages Ghost, which haunts the bathroom nearest to the Labour Party caucus room
    4: D-Mic

    Comment by Andrew Geddis — June 1, 2012 @ 2:06 pm

  18. They are both boring old twats although TC has the benefit of having a website that is not so freaking ugly it makes one a little bit sick in ones mouth.

    Comment by merv — June 1, 2012 @ 2:06 pm

  19. CT….

    Comment by merv — June 1, 2012 @ 2:07 pm

  20. I remember Chris from student politics days, when his idea of objective analysis was to carry a guitar around and strum Spanish civil-war songs at every opportunity.

    Comment by Smut Clyde — June 1, 2012 @ 2:15 pm

  21. They both have their valued stations along our route to political power!

    Comment by Robert Winter — June 1, 2012 @ 3:27 pm

  22. I can read a Gordon Campbell article, Trotter just wanks on about some candyfloss history when men were men and the water siders had some imagined integrity, circa 6 o’clock swill. Trotter speaks to a baby boom generation lefties, he sounds like the teacher in peanuts to me…

    this is bad for Grant Robertson David Shearer….

    Comment by andy (the other one) — June 1, 2012 @ 7:26 pm

  23. I do get very annoyed by Trotter spending so much time bashing the left, having said that though throughout his life he has been betrayed by political forces that he believed in, especially the 4th Labour govt. I think though he is too jaded to be the voice of the left anymore, left wing politics are meant to be about hope for a better future, and all Trotter offers now is nostalgia for a vanished past.

    Comment by alex — June 1, 2012 @ 8:33 pm

  24. Indeed, Alex, and the problem for Trotter is that it’s a past that never actually existed.

    Comment by Luc Hansen — June 1, 2012 @ 8:37 pm

  25. Grow up Danyl! Leave personalities out of it.

    You are projecting your own inadequacies upon others.

    Not a good idea for educators. Leave that to the Taleban and the USA fundamentalists.

    Comment by peterlepaysan — June 1, 2012 @ 9:30 pm

  26. LOL ” left wing politics are meant to be about hope for a better future”

    Comment by Tim — June 2, 2012 @ 5:29 am

  27. Left wing politics are the politics of failure.

    Comment by James — June 2, 2012 @ 9:17 am

  28. @ Tim – Well, they are. For the vast majority of the history of the parliamentary system left wing politics have been aimed primarily at the working poor, who were struggling to get by, and the left offered them some hope that someone, ie the government, would be able to help them. Take for example the 1935 Labour government, who eased the depression through the introduction of the welfare state, or the New Deal in the USA. Comments 26 and 27 add nothing to the debate, they are just examples of people with no knowledge of history, and no skills when it comes to trolling.

    Comment by alex — June 2, 2012 @ 9:32 am

  29. ‘New Zealand’s foremost left-wing commentator’

    Hardly a position anyone with any real intelligence would aspire to.

    Comment by Redbaiter — June 2, 2012 @ 11:41 am

  30. Chriss Trotter is a passionate guy. He’s also flawed….like all of us, but we aren’t on TV, radio and in print quite so much. There are other commentators. We could use a few more. If I have any problems with Chris Trotter they would be that he is over-exposed. Used too much. There is more diversity out there than “MSM” is prepared to access.

    Comment by Steve (@nza1) — June 2, 2012 @ 1:21 pm

  31. I personally don’t get all the hate directed at Chris Trotter. I suspect at lot of it comes from him having some unfashionable and plain old fashioned views that get the backs up of people who seem to think socialism is actually libertarianism with public ownership of key assets. Trotter harks back to an older tradition, of subordination of the individual to the collective, Savages applied Christianity and of blue collar values and he has short shrift for the egotistical “me-ism” of people who spend more time worrying about their right as middle class gays to get married than they ever do worrying about the 270,000 New Zealand children growing up poverty. And in a country where libertarian hyper-individualism is now a received cultural norm, criticizing someones obsession with their mirror in those terms is a deeply offensive thing to do.

    Comment by Sanctuary — June 2, 2012 @ 1:49 pm

  32. You never quite know what you’re going to get with Trotter. Labour stealing $800k to win the 2005 election was “acceptable corruption” because it kept
    Brash out and prevented “rivers of blood” in the streets and the nearly half of all voters, who voted National in 2005, were either neanderthals “fresh out of the barbeque pit” or their “feckless” partners. Then on other occasions he has been staunchly anti any favouritism for Maoris. Is he a button pusher, bent or just an old fashioned confused liberal ?

    Comment by maxwell — June 2, 2012 @ 4:23 pm

  33. But this discussion is really about how good Gordon Campbell is!

    Comment by Sanctuary — June 2, 2012 @ 8:02 pm

  34. “old fashioned confused liberal”

    He aint any sort of liberal really. Which is both his problem, and the left’s.

    It’s his problem, in that the left in NZ, as in most of the ‘west’, is made up of John Rawls style liberals. This means that they aren’t the socialists Trotter both wants them to be, and castigates for not being.

    It’s the left’s problem, because of his longstanding position as “voice of the left” in the media.

    Comment by Pascal's bookie — June 2, 2012 @ 8:25 pm

  35. At 34.
    Pascal that is the most meaningless illiteracy,

    Please tell us whatever you were on when you wrote it.

    We need to avoid whatever it is.

    Comment by peterlepaysan — June 2, 2012 @ 8:31 pm

  36. Sorry Peter.

    All I’m trying to say is that Trotter isn’t actually a liberal.
    I don’t know what the hell he is, be he isn’t liberal.

    The left in the modern west however, is liberal.

    that’s why Trotter is so upset with the left all the time.

    And it’s also a problem for the left, because Trotter is represented in the media as speaking “from the left”. When in fact, he doesn’t. Or at least, he doesn’t speak from(or for), the mainstream left that actually exists.

    Comment by Pascal's bookie — June 2, 2012 @ 9:18 pm

  37. Trotter’s gotten a lot of his predictions wrong in the recent past.

    He predicted the end of the Greens in the late 1990s, when it split from the Alliance. He also predicted Maori radicals would sabotage APEC in 1999. And I think the Waitakere Man phenomenon is a red herring.

    Comment by DeepRed — June 2, 2012 @ 10:33 pm

  38. Chris would probably describe himself as a radical, rather than a liberal. Not that I’m quite sure what that actually means in a modern New Zealand context.

    And he is a frightful windbag. His writing and speaking is enormously clunky and mannered.

    Comment by Dr Foster — June 3, 2012 @ 12:20 am

  39. I notice that Bowalley road has been very quiet since this post came out. Could it be the long weekend? Or could it be that Dim has hurt Trotter’s feelings and he’s licking his wounds?

    Comment by alex — June 3, 2012 @ 8:20 am

  40. @ alex — June 2, 2012 @ 9:32 am

    But it’s not 1935 anymore.

    Comment by Tim — June 3, 2012 @ 9:03 am

  41. Pascal, you have still not told us what you were on when you wrote the post..

    C’mon, “fess up”.

    Comment by peterlepaysan — June 3, 2012 @ 8:52 pm

  42. Gordon Campbell is brilliant! Chris Trotter is too, but in a slightly different way. Campbell focuses on a more academic style of writing, Trotter on a more historic polemical style. Both good styles, but different.

    @ Pascal’s Bookie – it’s a bit more subtle than that. Trotter rarely, if ever, attacks Labour or Greens or the ‘left’ for being liberal, but does lambast them frequently for not being left! That is, for not advocating and pushing economic or welfare or environmental policies that benefit the working class. Which does beg the question – are Labour or the Greens actually ‘left’? Seems not. Which is what gets Trotter in trouble with the faux left.

    Where Chris does criticise the liberals is for not grasping that most Kiwis are not liberal, and a truly democratic political party cannot ever get too far ‘ahead’ of it’s voters.

    Oh, and Chris (and Martyn Bradbury) pissed off genuine lefties by believing everything the police alleged about the Urewera 4/18. Effectively reversing the burden of proof, and demanding the Urewera defendants should ‘explain what they were doing’.

    Add it all up, and there’s a bit of a list as to why Chris gets flack.😉

    Comment by bob — June 4, 2012 @ 12:58 am

  43. Middle NZ is liberal as long as that doesn’t seem to require active change on their own part (as Section 59 was perceived to). When we get gay marriage, the majority of people will be fine with it, though the minority will be loud. The problem for Labour (well, one of many) over recent years is that they’ve lost a bunch of voters in both directions on social issues, yet they have to continue to address (and be liberal on) social issues to keep what’s left of the big tent together.

    Comment by bradluen — June 4, 2012 @ 10:19 am

  44. I’ve given up on Chris Trotter – far too self indulgent and so much more willing to attack the left than the right. No wonder the right are promoting him. Gordon Campbell, on the other hand, is a must read and always does thorough research. Another favourite for intelligent, measured commentary is Robert Winter.

    Comment by Karen — June 4, 2012 @ 10:51 am

  45. Chris Trotter seems like an out-of-touch conservative.Though, being a 28 year old woman who advocates progressive politics, perhaps it’s not surprising that his words read like they’re covered in cobwebs.

    Gordon Campbell is brilliant.

    Comment by Lissa — June 4, 2012 @ 5:57 pm

  46. ” And in a country where libertarian hyper-individualism is now a received cultural norm”

    If that is the truth, our politicians and media aren’t anywhere near this.

    E.g. The government proposes increasing paternalism around alcohol. And all the media says is “why not more?”.

    Comment by Swan — June 4, 2012 @ 9:18 pm

  47. “…If that is the truth, our politicians and media aren’t anywhere near this.

    E.g. The government proposes increasing paternalism around alcohol. And all the media says is “why not more?”…”

    I don’t see a contradiction. If hyper-individualism is the formula for success for the self-appointed and self-styled winners in our society then it follows that those same winners think that those they’ve labelled as losers need to be controlled. I think it is one of the central myths of libertarianism and hyper-individualism that they are automatically supporters of “liberty and freedom”. Rather, they have a very narrow definition of liberty and freedom which also happily manages to closely align with their own self-interest. Most libertarians/hyper-individualists regard the ideal society as an exercise in self-realisation, not a coherent application of any sort of ideal freedom of the individual. Outside their narrow definitions and self-realisations, most libertarians/hyper-individualists come across as anti-democratic and vindictive authoritarians.

    Comment by Sanctuary — June 5, 2012 @ 8:20 am

  48. Gee, that’s a sweeping & bitter generalisation if ever I’ve read one.

    I think that the ‘old socialist collective’ left is being ditched is not because widespread ‘hyper individualism’ is being callously exploited by the business elite as a way to control the proles through increasingly restrictive nanny state laws but because the ‘old socialist collective’ is increasingly irrelevant to the majority of New Zealanders who no longer need or want union interference in their lives.

    Comment by merv — June 5, 2012 @ 8:53 am

  49. “…I think that the ‘old socialist collective’ left is being ditched is not because widespread ‘hyper individualism’ is being callously exploited by the business elite as a way to control the proles through increasingly restrictive nanny state laws but because the ‘old socialist collective’ is increasingly irrelevant to the majority of New Zealanders who no longer need or want union interference in their lives…”

    unions? Who mentioned unions? And what have you got against punctuation in that enormously jumbled sentence anyway merv? Is reasonable punctuation now a political statement signalling your slavish adherence to socialist tyranny?

    Comment by Sanctuary — June 5, 2012 @ 9:49 am

  50. It seemed to me you were using collectivism as a proxy for unions Sanctuary, let me know if this was a mistaken assumption.

    Yeah yeah attack the messenger and avoid the message all you like.

    Comment by merv — June 5, 2012 @ 10:31 am

  51. shorter Campbell: the violence in Syria isn’t the result of a Russian-backed tyranny suppressing democracy, rather it’s the result of a US-Israeli-Saudi conspiracy against Iran.

    http://gordoncampbell.scoop.co.nz/2012/06/05/gordon-campbell-on-the-lack-of-options-in-syria/

    i’m not sure how “left-wing” that sort of nonsense is anymore.

    Comment by NeilM — June 5, 2012 @ 12:06 pm

  52. @ NeilM – I wouldn’t call it nonsense. Both explanations probably have a lot of truth in them, given the sabre rattling that the USA bloc is engaging in over Iran, and the fact that Syria is Iran’s closest ally.

    Comment by alex — June 5, 2012 @ 3:01 pm

  53. The sabre rattling about Iran producing weapons grade material? Sounds like a reasonable subject to rattle a sabre over.

    Comment by merv — June 5, 2012 @ 4:39 pm

  54. @alex

    I think it’s worse than nonsense, I was being polite.

    Starting with the opening line:

    Is the Assad regime better or worse than what is likely to follow in its wake?

    Kissinger could not have put it better. Although that would have been back in the days of the cold war when the US and Russia did opposed regime change when it came to their own clent states on the basis of it can only get worse if people get to decide. Obama acted somewhat differently with Mubarak. Russia hasn’t changed much.

    To the end:

    As a result, more sectarian division and bloodshed seem inevitable for the Syrian people. The enemies of Syria (and more to the point, the enemies of Iran) wouldn’t want it any other way.

    That’s right, not “the enemies of the Syrian dictatorship” but “the enemies of Syria”. And Obama, according to Campbell, is only too keen to have more Syrians suffer in order to further the anti-Iran conspiracy. Obama is an “enemy of Syria” because he supports the end of a dictatorship.

    The whole piece is complete shit. If that’s left-wing then I certainly would not want to be called left-wing.

    Campbell usually just regurgitates crack-pot stuff from Glenn Greenwald. Maybe he should stick to that. It sounds almost reasonable by comparison.

    Comment by NeilM — June 5, 2012 @ 6:08 pm

  55. Sanctuary @ 47, that rundown on the do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do thinking of libertarians is a bit of a keeper.

    Comment by Clunking Fist — June 5, 2012 @ 6:40 pm

  56. @ Merv- The Supreme Ayatollah has issued a fatwa against the production of nuclear weapons. His rule is law in Iran. Dictatorships are like that. Perhaps he’s lying, but who knows? Maybe we should take his word for it.
    @ NeilM – Neither of us are experts, and Campbell tends to do his research pretty well. I’m not denying the official story of events in Syria, I’m just suggesting that perhaps there may be other sides to the story. The world isn’t just divided into the good and the evil, even if Assad himself makes a very good case to be evil, something I should point out that Campbell doesn’t deny in his article. He is hardly an apologist for the regime, more just a realist about the complex geopolitical situation.

    Comment by alex — June 5, 2012 @ 7:44 pm

  57. Sanctuary,

    That is just a straight up redefinition of libertarianism. I’ll let you use hyper-individualism though.

    Comment by swan — June 5, 2012 @ 7:50 pm

  58. Campbell’s closing sentence on Syria is an empty flourish, but on the other hand:

    Is the Assad regime better or worse than what is likely to follow in its wake?

    is a question 22 million Syrians are currently quite interested in the answer to.

    Comment by bradluen — June 5, 2012 @ 9:16 pm

  59. more just a realist about the complex geopolitical situation.

    complex? a bit like gay rights in Iran?

    Comment by NeilM — June 5, 2012 @ 9:18 pm

  60. @bradluen

    currently in Libya and Egypt the alternatives to dictatorship are still looking to be an improvement. perhaps in the long term that might turn out to be an illusion but then that would apply equally to us as to them.

    Comment by NeilM — June 5, 2012 @ 9:24 pm

  61. alex @ 56. “@ Merv- The Supreme Ayatollah has issued a fatwa against the production of nuclear weapons. His rule is law in Iran. Dictatorships are like that. Perhaps he’s lying, but who knows? Maybe we should take his word for it.”

    We could do that. I’m not sure why you’d trust a rapid dictator though.

    Comment by merv — June 6, 2012 @ 9:54 am

  62. ha ha rapid instead of rabid.

    Comment by merv — June 6, 2012 @ 9:54 am

  63. New Zealand’s foremost left wing political commentator?

    I think it comes down to a contest between Martyn Bradbury and Scott Yorke…

    Comment by MeToo — June 6, 2012 @ 10:46 am

  64. I couldn’t agree more. Gordon’s commentary is balanced, very well researched, at times very cutting. He is a well-deserved recipient for the award. As for Chris Trotter…reading his commentary over the years leaves me with the opinion that he never wants a left of centre government because he’d be out of a job. And he has a blind spot when it comes to Maoridom. I won’t use the “r” word.

    Comment by John Williams — June 6, 2012 @ 12:40 pm

  65. Pierre Piccinin’s views were until recently being hailed by those with similar views to Campbell.

    he literallly did have a conversation on the road to Damascus:

    Comment by NeilM — June 6, 2012 @ 1:52 pm

  66. conversion

    Comment by NeilM — June 6, 2012 @ 1:53 pm

  67. Let’s face it, Bryan Gould is actually the left’s foremost political commentator

    Comment by Adrian — June 6, 2012 @ 7:27 pm

  68. I think Gordon’s view on Syria is pretty accurate: many commentators run the line “if only that nasty Mr Assad would pack his bags everything would be OK”, forgetting about the high likelihood of the victors fighting amongst themselves. Irak and Libya don’t sound like fun places to be post-liberation. . . As far as Chris Trotter goes, I must confess a liking for his purple prose: he would make a great preacher.

    Comment by Owen — June 6, 2012 @ 10:42 pm

  69. “if only that nasty Mr Assad would pack his bags everything would be OK”, forgetting about the high likelihood of the victors fighting amongst themselves.

    things have certainly changed since the days of the Spanish International Brigades.

    Suppose, for the sake of argument, that Israel was a fully-fledged dictatorship that executed children as part of a vicous anti-democracy campaign. Russia goes to the Security Council and demands that something be done, that the dictorship has lost any sort of legitimacy, must go and the inerternational communtity should support the local opposition.

    Would left-wong commentators be falling over themselves to spout the dictatorhip’s spin that the fault lies with the Russians and it’s all an Arab conspiracy against the legitimate govt of Israel?

    Comment by NeilM — June 7, 2012 @ 12:38 pm

  70. Thank you and well spotted.
    Now if only Nine to Noon would find someone from the Left other than the whiny Josie Pagani…

    Comment by donna — June 7, 2012 @ 2:50 pm

  71. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that Israel was a fully-fledged dictatorship that executed children as part of a vicous anti-democracy campaign.

    @NeilM

    Instead, Israel is a fully-fledged racist state that executes children as part of a vicous anti-Palestinian campaign.

    And whenever the salient issues of Palestinian sovereignty, collective punishment, occupation and oppression are raised in the UN, right-wing commentators fall over themselves to spout the ultra-zionist spin that the fault lies with the Palestinians and it’s all an Arab conspiracy against the legitimate govt of Israel.

    So I’m not sure what your point is. Are you saying it’s OK for those on the Right to do this but not the Left or are you making some other subtle point?

    Comment by Gregor W — June 7, 2012 @ 3:18 pm

  72. Are you saying it’s OK for those on the Right to do this but not the Left or are you making some other subtle point?

    I generally say what mean and I didn’t say that so you can take it I did not mean that.

    But I take it you agree that it is not something left-wing commentators should be doing.

    Perhaps a less contentious example would have been Apartheid. Indeed there were mang right-wing commentators muttering darkly about what would happen if the fractious black opponents won power. Just like now we have left-wing commentators making exactly the same argument.

    What is particularly interesting is that it is most often those commentators who pride themselves so much for being one of the few to Talk Truth to Power, because after all there is a Truth and Power needs to be confronted with it, that all of a sudden when a dictatosrhip is confronted with opposition then it’s all too complicated and somehow it’s all the fault of Isreal and the US.

    Comment by NeilM — June 7, 2012 @ 6:17 pm

  73. Neil, I too am still not really clear on what it is you think the left should be saying. Do you think the situation in Syria really isn’t complicated at all? Or is it that the left should ignore complications and just support every single uprising against dictators?

    Comment by Pascal's bookie — June 7, 2012 @ 6:55 pm

  74. Or is it that the left should ignore complications and just support every single uprising against dictators?

    Complications shouldn’t become an excuse for inaction especially when those complications come out of the regime’s propaganda machine.

    Comment by NeilM — June 8, 2012 @ 10:02 am

  75. Complications shouldn’t become an excuse for inaction especially when those complications come out of the regime’s propaganda machine.

    Sure, but you’re essentially ignoring the contra propaganda machine churning out the same old pro-NATO rubbish.
    Cautious people (not just Leftists) are rightly distrustful of this message after the thinly veiled episode of adventurism in Libya disguised as humanitarian interventionism.

    The same old trope in fact played in Bosnia, Kosovo and to a lesser degree Afghanistan.

    Comment by Gregor W — June 8, 2012 @ 10:36 am

  76. Did you see you were a finalist in a weekly award? http://peadpr.co.nz/blog/papergirl-carjacked-nearly.-maybe

    ‘Bout time you got a brush with glory, mate.

    Comment by Ataahua — June 8, 2012 @ 1:18 pm

  77. Like both Campbell and Trotter. Call me ‘an utter bastard’, but there you are.

    Comment by swordfish — June 10, 2012 @ 5:10 pm


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