The Dim-Post

September 15, 2014

But what is truth – if you follow me?

Filed under: general idiocy — danylmc @ 9:30 pm

There were some major revelations in the Internet Party’s ‘Moment of Truth’ event tonight, mostly from Glen Greenwald and Edward Snowden. But what there wasn’t was any reference to Kim Dotcom’s bombshell ‘proving’ that the Prime Minister had lied about Dotcom’s case, which was, originally, the entire premise for the event.

What happened? Well, my guess is that Dotcom showed his email to people like Amsterdam and Greenwald and they asked a few follow-up questions – where did this come from? Are there more emails? Is this, like, a total fucking fake? – weren’t satisfied with the answers and refused to appear on stage where the email was discussed. That’s why it was leaked to the Herald earlier today, and why Dotcom, Harre et al refused to discuss the email on the grounds that it is sub judicae, claiming that they’ll submit it to the Parliamentary Privileges Committee, even though Parliament isn’t in session.

So that’s a major fucking disaster. It takes away from the credibility of Snowden and Greenwald who have raised hugely important issues about our intelligence agencies and the Prime Minister’s integrity. I’ve had doubts about the Internet Party since day one and I’ll go a bit further tonight: don’t vote for these people. They’re fucking idiots.

56 Comments »

  1. It’s weird, as I get the impression Dotcom is simultaneously dumb enough to believe the email might be real (if it was given to him in exchange for reward) and smart enough that if he’d faked it he would have done a better job.

    Releasing the email basically ruined the entire thing, making the story about him, rather than the substantive content.

    Also, WTF was Assange doing there? What a waste of time that was.

    Comment by lefty — September 15, 2014 @ 9:35 pm

  2. See Campbell Live. He covered it tonight!

    Comment by flotsy — September 15, 2014 @ 9:36 pm

  3. Maybe they are trying to give Key a bit more rope.

    Comment by Ant — September 15, 2014 @ 9:37 pm

  4. Are you chanelling Whaleoil/Farrar by inventing questions ?
    #Well, my guess is that..

    Comment by ghostwhowalksnz — September 15, 2014 @ 9:37 pm

  5. You seem to be missing the point, it was not all about Kim, it was about democracy, and the truth of what is happening in NZ, and how we risk losing our rights due to the actions of the current government. ITs about making the right choice and making them accountable… and you, the press are more worried about keeping John Key’s attention, than doing some decent journalism. Get over yourselves and start representing the people of New Zealand.

    Comment by Suzy — September 15, 2014 @ 9:39 pm

  6. There were a few lonely voices saying beware.

    The left use to have arguments between Camus and Satre.

    Now it’s dominated by paranoid narcissists.

    To put it bluntly.

    Comment by NeilM — September 15, 2014 @ 9:42 pm

  7. I don’t agree, I mean who cares about dotcom’s email? As a voter, I certainly don’t. It’s just John Banks all over again, which was bad for him but had few implications for the country as a whole – a one-off lie to the public, it happens reasonably often in politics. It’s bad (and led to him being charged), but it’s not a risk to NZ. The stuff Snowden and Greenwald were talking about, on the other hand, is. New Zealand’s understanding of the extent to which the government is able to and has been and continues to monitor private citizens has been shown to be incorrect. This is a BIG PROBLEM. Internet Mana as a party and all the theatre around it, that’s a side issue.

    Comment by Sarah WD — September 15, 2014 @ 9:44 pm

  8. Fair point. But there was evidence that the PM had lied about the extent or surveillance in NZ by the GCSB. So ‘The Moment of Truth’ still delivered if the outcome was evidence of the PM lying.

    Comment by Sheffles — September 15, 2014 @ 9:44 pm

  9. lefty are you some kind of right wing astroturfer. The was no mention of the email at the event & while the other speakers were stronger especially Edward Snowden, Assange did add to the strengthen information & I liked that he gave Nicky Hager kudos.

    Comment by flotsy — September 15, 2014 @ 9:45 pm

  10. >So that’s a major fucking disaster

    Perhaps. I’m not sure that it’s not just a case of KDC thinking it was quite a big deal until we got weeks of Hager and Rawshark and the public seemed disinterested. He didn’t plan to be pre-trumped. So he put on an interesting show, with his and Assange’s presence really just being about completing the trifecta of techy internet people being pursued by the yanks for crimes they don’t think are crimes.

    I do expect that it will be framed as a major fucking disaster by the National Spin Machine, who somehow get to decide what it is all about and should signify, and can limit the discussion to John Key rebuttal soundbites, but I don’t think it’s going to be of interest, even now. Because the main people who we rely on to keep the government honest are up to their necks in hacker-originated shame, by their own pathetic failure to see what lazy dupes they really were.

    For a “disaster” it sure was the most compelling 105 minutes of political discussion I’ve seen so far. We’ll see how much of a disaster it is.

    Comment by Ben Wilson — September 15, 2014 @ 9:47 pm

  11. Open job application to Kim Dotcom:

    I’m not proud, I’ll take your cash, I got bills to pay. As your new political/PR adviser I will start with the Totally Effing Obvious. Sack whoever gave you political/PR advice today.

    You had the strongest witnesses against a Prime Minister since Owen Glenn turned up at Parliament in 2008 and made Helen squirm. In Snowden and Greenwald you had the perfect combo – informed, assured, devastating. You even had the Herald – the Herald! – demanding answers from the PM. It doesn’t get any better than this.

    Then you decided to make it all about you. It isn’t – but unfortunately two people really want it to be. You and John Key.

    So, please stop talking. (The invoice is in the post).

    Comment by sammy 2.0 — September 15, 2014 @ 9:53 pm

  12. @flotsy just pissed off that information valuable to NZers that might actually be able to help change things for the better is being sullied by Dotcom’s clumsiness, and what looks like his desire to make it all about him.

    Agreed regarding Assange’s first bit on Hager, but the rest of it just went on and on, with nothing substantive. I thought Amsterdam did a better job of tying it to dirty politics.

    Comment by lefty — September 15, 2014 @ 9:54 pm

  13. to be fair, the internet party isn’t necessarilly the same as KDC. He’s just the major donor. Right?

    Comment by SG — September 15, 2014 @ 10:02 pm

  14. Yeah, ignore the substance and discuss the game. Same old same old.

    Comment by MeToo — September 15, 2014 @ 10:03 pm

  15. Agreed, Danyl. Total fizzes.

    Greenwald landed a couple of pretty good zingers at Key’s expense, but the best a viewer could take away is that Key is probably a liar in terms of the mass intel timeline and scope of activities – if nothing else because of Swowden/Greenwald havn’t been substantially challenged by anyone else as to the veracity of their claims – but Key will ride this out as a huge chunk of the populace hate Dotcom more so…whatevs.

    Comment by Gregor W — September 15, 2014 @ 10:03 pm

  16. Why are you all making this about Dotcom? How did he try to make it all about him? Tonight we saw devastating revelations and documentary proof that NZ was involved in mass surveillance (proof Key said would lead him to resign) – you (and the press) all seem to be ignoring this in order to attack Dotcom – “there was no bombshell”, “he didn’t prove Key lied about knowledge about him” etc.

    Only the press have the power to push this aside and make it about Dotcom but I am astounded that so many (especially on the left) are not discussing the documents, the proof that is damning to Key, the revelations by Snowden and Greenwald. This was not about Dotcom, it was not about the Warner Brothers email, it wasn’t about Dirty Politics – it was about NZ involvement in mass surveillance which Key has repeatedly and strenuously denied. Key has declassified documents for political purposes, documents which don’t even address the issue, to try to defend himself.

    Why is it that the overseas news organisations are reporting on Snowden’s revelations while NZ media and commentators are all jumping in to fight for Key and National and claiming the Moment of Truth was a farce. Stop focusing on Dotcom and start talking about mass surveillance and Key’s promise to resign.

    Comment by Alan — September 15, 2014 @ 10:14 pm

  17. I’ve had doubts about the Internet Party since day one and I’ll go a bit further tonight: don’t vote for these people. They’re fucking idiots.

    You’re a smart guy Danyl. But really, it took you this long?

    Comment by Nick K — September 15, 2014 @ 10:15 pm

  18. Cunliffe backed the wrong horse.

    Given that he would have known KDC and friends we’re talking shit – labour having overseen the intelligence services and having write some of the relevant legislation while he was a minister – he choose the “there are questions to be answered” line.

    And it failed.

    Comment by NeilM — September 15, 2014 @ 10:17 pm

  19. >Key will ride this out as a huge chunk of the populace hate Dotcom more so

    We’ll see. Everyone is more concerned with making their pick about how much this will affect everyone else. Since the last election swung 5% against the polls just because Winston Peters heard the teapot tape, I don’t think all the cynicism is warranted. This thing is wide open and tonight could well have made a difference. It might not swing the MSM, if they’re as biased as everyone seems to think, but the unvoters, our largest group, might do anything. This thing ain’t in the bag and Key is very beatable, and it all might spill over into the post poll period too.

    Comment by Ben Wilson — September 15, 2014 @ 10:19 pm

  20. thank christ dotcom has the money and the ambition to bring this to life, no fucking law society would bother. I was fascinated and appalled by the revelations, completely forgot about the email. The revelations about spying are extremely important and I fear the substance of what was said will be lost in the criticism of dotcom, IP, Harre…
    For fucks sake Snowden destroyed his life for the public good, and it was telling when he said he wasnt used to a hall of people cheering for him. And meanwhile you complain there was no revelation??
    Endless analysis from a bunch of Neils

    Comment by Marcus — September 15, 2014 @ 10:24 pm

  21. Labour and the left in generally shouldn’t have hitched their wagon to the conspiracy theorists.

    Conspiracy stories don’t have legs – they grow legs and then wander off causing havoc in random directions.

    Comment by NeilM — September 15, 2014 @ 10:29 pm

  22. I’d like to get our politics back now from people who think Obama is evil.

    There more important issues to be concerned about and more intelligent opinions to be considered.

    Comment by NeilM — September 15, 2014 @ 10:50 pm

  23. Snowden is not a conspiracy theorist. It is worth noting, yet again, that no one has been able to discredit him in over a year. So when he says “New Zealand, you are being watched” we should all STFU and listen rather than waste our time with partisan sideshows.
    It sounds like the ‘intelligence community’ in (at least) 5 countries are out of control and our prime minister is A-OK with that.

    KDC is a hothead but that doesn’t mean the civil liberties and privacy issues he has championed are not valid. Unfortunately for us it seems he fell in love with an email that should have alerted his internet-spider-sense. Why? Because it said more than he could have ever wished for and that in itself should have been cause for alarm. However the fact that the email is almost certainly a fake does not mean that all the other stuff that the Internet party is fighting for is automatically horse-shit.

    Comment by Josh Petyt — September 15, 2014 @ 10:53 pm

  24. NeiM – If you can get your head of it’s hole in the ground long enough to post here, why is it that you don’t have time to see your beloved Nats have been behaving very badly….and have been caught out badly. Key lied about the GCSB spying on Kiwis…and when caught he rushed through a change to the law to make spying legal.

    Thanks, John.

    No “conspiracy theory” there. It was all to sadly real. One more reason the National Party represents those Kiwis happy to support corruption. Good on ya, NeilM. You’re right up there with all the National-voting BMW and Audi drivers speeding – solo – up the T2 lanes at rush hour imagining everyone ELSE is corrupt. Yeah…just like that.

    Comment by Steve W — September 15, 2014 @ 11:02 pm

  25. Is no one worried that these conventions and agreements are between unelected spy agencies band not national governments? I know I am!. And as for 2 American spy bases in Auckland? If you want to make yourself a target and paint a bullseye on it, get yourself an American spy base!

    Comment by daffy — September 15, 2014 @ 11:08 pm

  26. NeilM – nice to see you running the usual inane utterances to counter arguements that haven’t been made. Kudos for consistency!

    Comment by Gregor W — September 15, 2014 @ 11:10 pm

  27. Gregor, you’re right. It was a triumph for Key’s opponents and Labour have so
    much to gain with being mealy mouthed about what they know the intelligence service.

    Comment by NeilM — September 15, 2014 @ 11:19 pm

  28. Got to give Neil full marks for stamina if not sense.

    Comment by Sacha — September 15, 2014 @ 11:31 pm

  29. — “There were a few lonely voices saying beware.”

    Including from the left. There has always been a wariness of KDC.

    You’re right that arguments among the left more interesting than arguments among the right, though.

    Comment by steve — September 15, 2014 @ 11:33 pm

  30. So KDC suckered Greenwald into becoming part of this fiasco.

    KDC has played a lot of people including a few local pundits.

    It’s been a pattern for a while now.

    If Greenwald was so so intelligent to see Obama as evil then how come he gets hoodwinked by a two bit huckster?

    Comment by NeilM — September 15, 2014 @ 11:35 pm

  31. To be even more blunt; KDC, Greenwald, Snowden, Assange have all lined up to condemn Obama and have all lined up to condemn Key.

    Now, given what’s going on in the world does one support Obama and his approach to foreign policy. Or does one go for KDC?

    Comment by NeilM — September 15, 2014 @ 11:56 pm

  32. >So KDC suckered Greenwald into becoming part of this fiasco.

    >KDC has played a lot of people including a few local pundits.

    Greenwald just got live conferenced in a major political event where he was treated like a rockstar, amongst a band of online rockstars. I doubt he’s going to be going to bed with a bitter taste in his mouth tonight. Suckered my arse. Greenwald loved it, as did the crowd. Of course they were a bit wary of KDC, but he IS actually part of the story, whether anyone likes it or not, particularly you.

    Comment by Ben Wilson — September 15, 2014 @ 11:56 pm

  33. — “Given that he would have known KDC and friends we’re talking shit – labour having overseen the intelligence services and having write some of the relevant legislation while he was a minister – he choose the “there are questions to be answered” line.”

    Yes, he chose the same line journalists like Sabin, Gower, O’Brien, and Wilson all agreed is correct.

    Comment by steve — September 16, 2014 @ 12:57 am

  34. he chose the same line journalists like Sabin, Gower, O’Brien, and Wilson all agreed is correct.

    Those journalists however never had the advantage of being in Cabinet.

    Cunliffe was a minister and a minister of a govt that instigated a major legislative review of the security services that resulted in the legislation that remained current under National when the whole KDC started.

    So for him to now innocently claim Key has questions to be answered, when he knows that not to be the case, isn’t a good look.

    Comment by NeilM — September 16, 2014 @ 1:11 am

  35. Yeah everybody should just leave Key alone! He is beyond questioning, especially at election time.

    Comment by shonkeypm — September 16, 2014 @ 2:57 am

  36. Snowden “NZ you are being watched”, cool. Whats the situation like in Russia regarding spying on its citizens Ed?

    Comment by Del Griffith — September 16, 2014 @ 6:39 am

  37. Or the Russian government approach to “regulating” journalists. If Greenwald was Russian he would have died from lead or polonium poisoning years ago.

    Comment by bpp — September 16, 2014 @ 7:04 am

  38. “NZ you are being watched” Lol. You lot crack open if there any attempt to shrink the size of the State. You got what you wanted.

    Throwing internet mana under the bus. Yeah right. Dot Com is the darling of the left.

    Comment by Simon — September 16, 2014 @ 7:10 am

  39. Danyl has ALWAYS been hostile to the Internet party, because he his terrified that if it got traction it would pinch votes of the Greens. Fair enough, I thought the Dotcom email a bit odd myself. But reacting by channeling the despicably self-righteous DPF and odious Slater is a bit OTT.

    I found Snowden incredibly compelling, and Assange nothing like how the media has portrayed him (as a bit of an eccentric flake). Both those two and Greenwald were hugely persuasive. When Snowden says the GCSB has been part of a global mass surveillance program that includes all our NZ data I frankly believe him more than I do John Key. After all, nothing Snowden has said has even been shown to be alie.

    Comment by Sanctuary — September 16, 2014 @ 7:14 am

  40. Just a note on the thread. 8 of the now 40 comments are from NeilM. That’s 20% of all of contributions.

    I think Pete George has re-registered under a fake name.

    Comment by Flashing Light — September 16, 2014 @ 7:25 am

  41. @Comment by bpp — September 16, 2014 @ 7:04 am – Get real. You guys don’t give a shit about the state of journalism in Russia. It is just another distraction that has become a program of downright denial because you don’t want to know that your precious John Key has been lying, and you don’t want to know that you’ve been spied on and really – you prefer being spied on anyway, because you are little authoritarians who like it that way. Which is fine. Snowden made the point that as a free country we are free to make that choice. But he also said uninformed consent is no consent at all. We should demand to knwo what is being done in our name or we are all collectively guilty of the crimes that result from our negligence.

    Snowden provided those that care and those that were prepared to listen with a more lucid, coherent, and credible explanation of basic civics than any number of posts by Danyl. He has paid a price for his beliefs.

    We should be ashamed of ourselves that it has taken some Americans to enter into our election debate and make our freedom and liberty an issue.

    Comment by Sanctuary — September 16, 2014 @ 7:31 am

  42. OMG. I agree with Andrea Vance – http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10502898/Moment-of-truth-do-believe-the-hype

    Comment by Sanctuary — September 16, 2014 @ 7:33 am

  43. Top work as always NeilM, keep it up!

    The cheque is in the mail.

    Comment by John Key — September 16, 2014 @ 8:20 am

  44. Cunliffe was a minister and a minister of a govt that instigated a major legislative review of the security services that resulted in the legislation that remained current under National when the whole KDC started.

    Have you not been paying attention or something? This is about stuff that happened in 2012 and 2013, not while Cunliffe was a cabinet minister. If they were planning and carrying out illegal activities in those years, it’s nothing whatsoever to do with Cunliffe.

    Comment by Psycho Milt — September 16, 2014 @ 8:43 am

  45. But reacting by channeling the despicably self-righteous DPF and odious Slater is a bit OTT.

    Sanc – I think this is a bit simplistic.

    Danyl’s point is pretty clear to me. The good oil from Greenwald, Snowden, and Amsterdam – which is what people should be focussed on and should see Key packing his bags – has been diluted/derailed by what appears to be dupe email.
    This one document (which can simply be denied away in the absence of supplementary information) will be used as a launching pad to smear and discredit the substantive message and the messengers – and most people will buy it.

    Which is a shame and a wasted opportunity for the public to become interested in some incredibly important issues namely the (i) the PMs honesty and demeanour when challenged (ii) illegal activities being conducted with the connivance of the PM (iii) the erosion of rights and constitutional conventions without the ‘informed consent’ of the public.

    Comment by Gregor W — September 16, 2014 @ 9:31 am

  46. The Internet Mana Party stuff up sometimes. However they have some excellent policies and represent best the old Labour Party values abandoned by Labour in 1984.

    All other Parties stuff up too. Labour had Jones. It also had the fiasco of engineering Shearer in to exclude Cunliffe, all done incompetently so that everyone could see the knives and the blood. National had Collins and now has Key. The Greens had Norman sucking up to National a few days ago. When did the Maori Party last get anything right? As for the rest….

    Internet Mana are doing damned well.

    Comment by Freeman101 — September 16, 2014 @ 11:16 am

  47. Neil doesn’t need a cheque – i’m pretty sure it’s all about repressed homoeroticism – until he acknowledges this he won’t see the wood for the keys

    Comment by Mag Rod Aigh — September 16, 2014 @ 11:20 am

  48. ” i’m pretty sure it’s all about repressed homoeroticism –”
    You lose with that comment: it makes you look like a homophobe, FFS.

    Comment by Clunking Fist — September 16, 2014 @ 7:07 pm

  49. The event was the most interesting live event I’ve seen lately.

    It showed quite clearly Key had been dishonest the whole way through with what he’s been saying about the GCSB and the laws that he and the nats have passed.

    Snowden in particular showed the type of humanity, dignity and sincerity that makes key look like low grade creepy whale oil fan boy.

    I thought it was great to hear Snowden speak to New Zealand.

    Comment by reason — September 16, 2014 @ 10:42 pm

  50. TL:DR – those who believed Dotcom before this believe him even more, those who didn’t, believe him less.

    Not hugely surprised by Danyl coming out against the IMP, though.

    Comment by kalvarnsen — September 16, 2014 @ 11:07 pm

  51. People forget, Greenwald ain’t silly. There will be more to come (even if it is after the election). He will just be giving the PM a bit more rope. After the PMs childish insults I am sure he is motivated too. IMO revelations after the election will be worse because any further evidence of lies will paralyse the parliamentary agenda.

    Comment by MrV — September 17, 2014 @ 3:18 am

  52. NeilM always cracks me up. Whenever criticism is leveled at the government, he’s all “something something something something something Labour something something something something Cunliffe.”

    What he’s going to do when / if Labour are ever governing again and we’re leveling criticism in their direction? Will he short-circuit?

    Comment by prgcnt — September 17, 2014 @ 7:32 am

  53. “those who believed Dotcom before this believe him even more, those who didn’t, believe him less.”

    I’m one of those who believed him before and believe him less now. Suspicious looking ‘evidence’ is suspicious. I was never going to vote IMP, however (and nor was Danyl I think?)

    And yeah, there’ll be more to come from Greenwald. So far Key has changed his story at least 4 times. I expect there’ll be more.

    I’m highly surprised that people aren’t disgusted with the released docs from Key. Even if he’s the hero that stopped the GSCB from implementing what Greenwald has said they did (which I don’t believe for one minute) the documents Key has released prove beyond doubt that Key lied to NZers during the GSCB bill debate: While he was busy saying over and over again that the GSCB was not going to collect data on mass, the GSCB were putting together a business case to do exactly that (with Cabinet and Key’s approval FFS!)

    Comment by lefty — September 17, 2014 @ 9:29 am

  54. Clunking Fist: You lose with that comment: it makes you look like a homophobe, FFS.

    you chose the right moniker – it’s about repression and that takes many forms – if you’re still unsure about what i’m getting at check out some Dennis Potter – and how does throwing around words like `homophope’ help us to understand/free somebody like NeilM – who obviously comes to this blog searching for some kind of truth/help (whether he recognises it or not) – i may be wrong about repressed homoeroticism it’s just a hunch i have after reading/listening to him for quite a while now – (for what it’s worth i think homoeroticism is great!)

    Comment by Mag Rod Aigh — September 17, 2014 @ 12:55 pm

  55. “The left use to have arguments between Camus and Satre”

    And Camus and Satre had a big fight over a woman called Wanda, quell horreur that they were ordinary people after all

    Comment by ghostwhowalksnz — September 17, 2014 @ 2:57 pm

  56. any further evidence of lies will paralyse the parliamentary agenda.

    Key has made a very good living out of telling lies. I am not sure how a few more lies will cause paralysis.

    Comment by Ross — September 17, 2014 @ 3:09 pm


RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Create a free website or blog at WordPress.com.

%d bloggers like this: