The Dim-Post

November 14, 2015

Paris terrorist attacks

Filed under: Uncategorized — danylmc @ 1:40 pm

The news is still a bit confusing but there seem to have been multiple coordinated attacks across the city with over a hundred people dead.

  • People on twitter are sternly warning everyone not to jump to conclusions but I feel safe predicting that an Islamic group carried out the attacks
  • Anything this big usually has a policy target. The most likely outcome of this attack is that European nations close their borders to refugees fleeing the conflict in Syria and Iraq. So my wild uneducated guess is that these attacks were carried out by ISIS to discourage people who they consider the subjects of their Caliphate from trying to flee to Europe.
  • ISIS carried out a similar attack in Beirut yesterday. Lebanon is home to over a million refugees
  • It is less than a year since the attacks on Charlie Hebdo. The fact that an even larger attack on the French capital could be organised and carried out doesn’t say much for the competence of France’s intelligence services.

107 Comments »

  1. “The fact that an even larger attack on the French capital could be organised and carried out doesn’t say much for the competence of France’s intelligence services.”

    That’s the kind of argument that usually precedes a call for increased surveillance/restricted freedoms.

    Since I assume you’re against that, I wonder what you would suggest the French security community do, beyond “be more competent”?

    Comment by kalvarnsen — November 14, 2015 @ 2:25 pm

  2. So we can sheet home the blame for this to the incompetent French security community? Or perhaps the blame lies with the hyper-competent ISIS terrorists?

    Comment by artcroft — November 14, 2015 @ 2:38 pm

  3. French authorities thwart at least one terrorist attack a week.. every week.

    The law of averages says you aren’t going to be successful every time if only because the enormous spying system and resources required for near total protection simply isn’t supported by citizens.

    JC

    Comment by JC — November 14, 2015 @ 2:49 pm

  4. It seems kinda wrong to try to use this tragic event as a chance to score points off the intelligence services.

    A.

    Comment by Antoine — November 14, 2015 @ 2:53 pm

  5. The headline on The Standard doesn’t seem right either: “Paris – Hopefully not ushering the beginning of the end for the European public’s recent empathy for refugees.”

    How about a bit of good old fashioned (a) sympathy for the victims and (b) condemnation for the perpetrators?

    A.

    Comment by Antoine — November 14, 2015 @ 2:57 pm

  6. I think this could be just a prelude to what will happen if ISIS is defeated in Syria and Iraq. I don’t think there has been a state composed primarily of terrorists for hundreds of years. When it is militarily defeated the diaspora could be devastating.

    Comment by Korakys — November 14, 2015 @ 3:19 pm

  7. I doubt this attack has been specifically directed by any policy logic where IS sees refugees as traitorous subjects of the Caliphate.

    The message is far more simple.

    It’s firstly about IS projecting power and the ability to strike at the heart of their enemies at will.

    Secondly, it’s designed to generate anti-Muslim feeling (probably including the European wide response you predict on the back of popular pressure), in order to further radicalise people.

    Comment by Gregor W — November 14, 2015 @ 3:33 pm

  8. I tend to agree with you Gregor.

    Its a demonstration of their power first and foremost – a message they are not defeated. They have suffered a few reversals of late in the Middle East this is just a reminder they are still capable of operating in the heart of Europe.

    The second objective will definitely happen – but then the Authorities need to be clever and use that spectre as a cover for recruiting moderates to their cause of a peaceful & tolerant France. The help us prevent carnage appeal

    It does raise the fundamental question of whether Islam can co-exist with Secularism and Humanism in the West don’t you think? And whether allowing ongoing immigration of people loyal to creed that brooks no equals is a good idea…

    Comment by dave1924 — November 14, 2015 @ 4:25 pm

  9. Horrific. And yes, designed to stir up hatred for some purpose.

    This will also see the end of the Christmas Island news cycle. This is more urgent, more important, and far more dramatic. (As you would expect, with the killing of 140 people in a country we identify with.)

    Comment by Kawakawa — November 14, 2015 @ 5:04 pm

  10. Likely to generate the kind of blow- back against recent migrants that will further alienate those already in Europe. Every reaction of the state in search of improved security has added further to the pool of the alienated.
    As for Antoine’s confident critique of the post, ‘seems kinda wrong to try to use’, words fail me ….as they seem to have done him.

    Comment by paritutu — November 14, 2015 @ 5:47 pm

  11. On what ISIS/Islamist terrorists aim to do with these attacks:

    They’ve not been shy in explaining themselves, and they are not stupid. The goal, (as with all terrorism) is to radicalise your opponents against the people you claim to represent. The crackdown will move more of the people you claim to be fighting for into soft supporters of you, which makes it easier to both recruit hard support, and to avoid detection as co-operation with the state reduces under crackdowns.

    Also, go read this guys timeline:

    https://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi

    He’s an Arab spring activist who really knows his shit.

    Comment by Pascal's bookie — November 14, 2015 @ 5:48 pm

  12. Ha, didn’t know that would embed, if you click on the image, it should take you through to where you can read ISIS saying what ISIS aims to achieve.

    Comment by Pascal's bookie — November 14, 2015 @ 5:49 pm

  13. The most likely outcome of this attack is that European nations close their borders to refugees fleeing the conflict in Syria and Iraq.

    Any evidence for that? Is this some insight into the French psyche – that they’ll react with xenophobia?

    Comment by NeilM — November 14, 2015 @ 5:50 pm

  14. The fact that an even larger attack on the French capital could be organised and carried out doesn’t say much for the competence of France’s intelligence services.

    Really?

    Comment by Ne — November 14, 2015 @ 6:05 pm

  15. This will also see the end of the Christmas Island news cycle.

    Jesus – I knew Crosby Textor were evil, but I didn’t think they were that evil!

    Comment by Flashing Light — November 14, 2015 @ 6:05 pm

  16. Any evidence for that?

    It’s not an entirely unreasonable supposition, given how sketchy European countries were getting about the refugee stream before this happened. Also note the claim was about Europe, not France in particular.

    Comment by Flashing Light — November 14, 2015 @ 6:08 pm

  17. I’ll take that as a no there isn’t any evidence.

    Comment by NeilM — November 14, 2015 @ 6:11 pm

  18. First post in my life I’ve ever defended security services but is it realistic for them to track every possible extremist? Muslims in France equate to the population of NZ. When they make plans that don’t require serious logistics and long term planning, organisation and communication (compare training to be pilots etc for 9/11 vs firing AK47s in a crowded theatre), there’s just so much less for the security services to latch on to even with their present heightened post 9/11 form and capabilities. I think this was a cheap shot and you let yourself down here Danyl compared to your normal standards😦

    Comment by Joe-90 — November 14, 2015 @ 6:28 pm

  19. Yes, Neil. There is no evidence that something predicted to happen in the future as the result of events currently unfolding has yet happened. Thank Jehovah you are here to spot such things!

    However, there is this evidence of mounting European uneasiness with refugee movements:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/12/refugee-crisis-sweden-introduces-border-checks
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/germany-moves-to-seal-external-borders-against-refugees/5488716
    https://www.rt.com/uk/321837-shengen-borders-refugee-crisis/

    Comment by Flashing Light — November 14, 2015 @ 6:39 pm

  20. Yes, Neil. There is no evidence that something predicted to happen in the future as the result of events currently unfolding has yet happened. Thank Jehovah you are here to spot such things!

    However, there is this evidence of mounting European uneasiness with refugee movements:
    https://www.rt.com/uk/321837-shengen-borders-refugee-crisis/

    Comment by Flashing Light — November 14, 2015 @ 6:39 pm

  21. Muslims in restaurants, bars, clubs and sports venues in Paris last night weren’t at risk from French xenophobia.

    Comment by NeilM — November 14, 2015 @ 6:43 pm

  22. The social media is full of advice for the French.

    To avoid this they need to be more multicultural, need to learn more about Islam etc etc.

    Very much like after Charlie Hebdo. Where in reality the French public and govt reacted in a liberal manner.

    The risk isn’t that France and Europe will
    fall into extreme right wing hands. The risk is of further attacks.

    Given the attacks have been on the very embodiment of those values its very odd advice.

    When there was the attack on a black church in the US did anyone argue that the real danger was some sort of black backlash?

    Comment by NeilM — November 14, 2015 @ 7:05 pm

  23. When they make plans that don’t require serious logistics and long term planning, organisation and communication

    Obviously I’m not remotely an expert in any of this, but I’m pretty sure that getting a bunch of trained guys with suicide vests and automatic weapons to attack multiple targets at once is a big job that would have involved hundreds of people and millions of dollars to carry out.

    This attack was pretty similar to the 2008 Mumbai attacks, you can read about the training and preparation on the Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks

    Comment by danylmc — November 14, 2015 @ 7:41 pm

  24. The French have closed their borders.

    Comment by Neil Miller — November 14, 2015 @ 7:41 pm

  25. Does anyone have any clue what NeilM is saying?

    Comment by Flashing Light — November 14, 2015 @ 8:03 pm

  26. Obviously I’m not remotely an expert in any of this, but I’m pretty sure…

    Why not just provide some evidence for your clains?

    Surely the effectiveness of the security services also has to do with what they have prevented.

    It’s your blog and you can say what you like but at the moment you don’t have much besides “I’m pretty sure” to back up what are claiming to be fact.

    Comment by NeilM — November 14, 2015 @ 8:44 pm

  27. Ok I think it’s the word “competence” I reacted to. As if any of the blame for this evil lies anywhere but with the perpetrators, all of whom seem to be mentally ill – if shouting God is Great before you kill innocent people then yourself doesn’t qualify for time in the psychiatric ward, I don’t know what does.

    My comparison with multi year prep involved with 9/11 was one extreme and I take your point – getting a few people, and a few AK47s and shooting them in a public place mightn’t be of the same order of magnitude, but from the link I can see where you are coming from – the lead in, getting to the point you have a few folk who are armed with bombs, and are all prepared to die, that certainly implies more resourcing than the implementation on the day does, and certainly some trails for the security forces.

    But Neil is right there’s still nothing there to lead you straight to a competence point. A more charitable and less controversial point tonight, on this ugly day, might have been that this implies existing levels of French surveillance, thresholds for escalation etc – dare I say it, liberty and liberalism in French society – will have to be reviewed, with all that follows from that. Which presumably, is precisely what the planners of these acts wanted.

    Comment by Joe-90 — November 14, 2015 @ 9:18 pm

  28. I was considering going to Paris for the climate change conference at the end of the month. Probably won’t now – the whole city will be in lockdown for who knows how long.

    The attacks really close the gap between the war in the Middle East and day-to-day life in Western Europe.

    Comment by Seb Rattansen — November 14, 2015 @ 10:30 pm

  29. Which presumably, is precisely what the planners of these acts wanted.

    I’m sceptical about the idea that the aim is to provoke a security clamp down and popular backlash against Muslims.

    The targets have been liberal targets – Charlie Hebdo, young multiculturalists out having fun.

    Not targets the extreme right are going to get too animated over.

    It’s possible that ISIS just attacks what it doesn’t like. That’s what they do in other places.

    Comment by NeilM — November 14, 2015 @ 10:32 pm

  30. “Is this some insight into the French psyche – that they’ll react with xenophobia?”

    I feel so sorry for the half educated victims of the left controlled education system, who come out of our universities thinking Islam is a race.

    Comment by Redbaiter — November 14, 2015 @ 10:54 pm

  31. More intelligence & surveillance isn’t the same as competent intelligence & surveillance. Quantity versus quality. Sometimes there’s just no substitute for good old ‘(gum)shoes on the ground’.

    Like al-Qaeda, ISIS doesn’t seem to care who it kills, as long as fear and panic can be spread in the name of what it calls Islam.

    Comment by Kumara Republic — November 14, 2015 @ 11:09 pm

  32. Curious that celebilitary-prison-industrial-complex Realpolitik rape apologists, are demanding “The Left” care about the victims…

    (No room for passionless analysis here, i tells ya!)

    Comment by hydey — November 15, 2015 @ 12:43 am

  33. @Red: “xeno” means “other”, and “xenophobia” refers to any fear of people who are different.

    Of course I learned Greek in university, not on right wing blogs, so maybe I’m wrong.

    Comment by kalvarnsen — November 15, 2015 @ 12:54 am

  34. “Young multiculturalists having fun”

    I wouldn’t want to equate the two attacks in terms of rationale.

    One was specifically a political reaction, the most recent has been clearly designed for maximum impact.

    If you don’t understand why IS and fellow travellers want to create an environment of radicalism in Europe, then you havn’t been paying attention NeilM.

    Comment by Gregor W — November 15, 2015 @ 12:56 am

  35. “I’m sceptical about the idea that the aim is to provoke a security clamp down and popular backlash against Muslims.

    The targets have been liberal targets – Charlie Hebdo, young multiculturalists out having fun.

    Not targets the extreme right are going to get too animated over.”

    So you’re sceptical about what conflict studies teaches about how terrorist strategy works? I’m sure you know better than the people who study terrorist literature, (not just the propaganda but the the internal docs and all the rest of it, from campaigns all around the world from groups of various ideology, who refernce each other in the same way traditional military strategists reference Clausewitz and the like), what do you base this scepticism on? Gut reckon?

    Coz the idea that ‘the aim is to provoke a security clamp down and popular backlash against Muslims’ isn’t some fluffy thing pulled out of the air, it’s what terrorist strategists teach each other.

    Comment by Pascal's bookie — November 15, 2015 @ 1:37 am

  36. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995913/Terrorists-are-defining-Islam.-We-Muslims-must-react.html

    I took a shred of hope from this – Perhaps the dialogue can move away from defining this as a religious problem, and reframing it as a death-cult problem. Few people consider The Final Solution as the activities of out of control Christians for example.

    Perhaps a first valuable step might be to support Muslims who wish to protest against this kind of heinous activity as opposed to recoiling from them because they happen to share the same religion with some people who are hell-bent on spreading terror and death. However, this would require courage and overt condemnation by Muslims to get it started, which is why I take some hope from the composition of the article above.

    Comment by Lee Clark — November 15, 2015 @ 7:14 am

  37. “I’m sceptical about the idea that the aim is to provoke a security clamp down and popular backlash against Muslims.

    Why not just provide some evidence for your claims?

    Comment by Flashing Light — November 15, 2015 @ 7:50 am

  38. I’m sure you know better than the people who study terrorist literature

    I must confess I don’t study terrorist literature. But I would’ve thought that there might be more than one possible explanation for a terrorist attack. For instance, the terrorists might be having a hard time of it in Iraq/Syria and need a “win”, albeit against soft targets.

    Comment by Ross — November 15, 2015 @ 8:00 am

  39. U2 lead singer Bono has said the Paris massacres, especially the attack on the music concert, was Islamic State’s first “direct hit against music”.

    Bono said the bombs and bullets at the Eagles of Death Metal concert showed the attackers don’t like music.

    “Our first thoughts at this point are with the Eagles of Death Metal fans,” Bono told the Dave Fanning Show on Irish radio 2FM on Saturday.

    The U2 star added: “When you think about it, the majority of victims from last night’s attacks were music fans.

    “So this really is the first direct hit on music we’ve had on this so-called war on terror.

    “We know that they don’t like music … and this and the cold-blooded aspect of last night’s attacks are what are really upsetting because it means it could have been any of us.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/14/paris-terror-attacks-attackers-dead-mass-killing-live-updates

    Clearly, the attack had nothing to do with provoking a backlash against Muslims but was all about IS’s hatred of music!

    Comment by Ross — November 15, 2015 @ 8:05 am

  40. But I would’ve thought that there might be more than one possible explanation for a terrorist attack. For instance, the terrorists might be having a hard time of it in Iraq/Syria and need a “win”, albeit against soft targets.

    It’s worth considering the actions of cults in terms of internal cult dynamics.

    There’s an element of recruitment involved but it could be far more direct than the complicated strategies being put forward.

    These acts attract a certain type of individual.

    Comment by NeilM — November 15, 2015 @ 8:38 am

  41. And reinforce the in group out group dynamic and also provide an internal mechanism of judging loyalty to the cause.

    There’s an obvious disconnect between the “cause right wing backlash” theory and the actual targets – which are not exactly heartland FN.

    Comment by NeilM — November 15, 2015 @ 8:41 am

  42. “There’s an obvious disconnect…”

    NeilM – there’s only a disconnect is you mistake tactics for strategy.

    Comment by Gregor W — November 15, 2015 @ 9:23 am

  43. Mumbai is not a good comparison, I don’t think.

    Obviously too soon to say in any detail, but Mumbai involved a complex cross-border amphibious insertion, hit (what should have been) defended targets like CST, killed several armed police, and was sustained over several days, and was therefore backed by the Pakistani deep state which trained the attackers in how to conduct a complex cross-border amphibious assault against targets protected by armed guards and maintain operations for several days.

    Given that the Paris attackers didn’t have to conduct a cross-border amphibious insertion and seemed to hit soft targets (cafes etc) and don’t seem to have killed any armed police, and were mopped up overnight, I’m not sure how much you can analogise between the two events, and I think it’s way too early to draw any other conclusions as far as what kind of preparation the Paris attackers had.

    Comment by Keir Leslie — November 15, 2015 @ 10:31 am

  44. What a struggle to find even one comment from the left here that suggests the author is engaged with reality.

    All this waffle about why they chose this target or that target and “what was the purpose”…??

    FFS. Unbelievable tosh.

    Terrorists are sending a message and in Paris the message is twofold “we will not be stopped from entering your towns and cities and you are not safe no matter where you are or what methods you employ. We will keep doing what we do and you will eventually succumb. Your defeat is inevitable.”

    EOS.

    And don’t forget this is a message that so called “moderate Muslims” will hear as well. See here for my argument on that lame limp FITH perspective. Even if most Muslims are moderates, does it really matter?

    And of course they will continue to enter our towns and cities and of course we are not safe. There are many reasons for this continuance. The primary one is the Progressives in politics media and academia (the Progressive political class) who think Western culture and traditions are trash and not worth saving. That we need to be multi-cultural in order to be a truly functional and civilised community.

    They’re white ants aiding the enemy, mostly in ignorance and/ or due to thinking patterns inculcated by a politically corrupted education system.

    Merkel, Key, Turnbull, Obama, Cameron, Hollande, none of these so called “leaders” have the courage we need. The courage to take the fight to the terrorists and defeat them where they live sleep and eat. Because they are victims of left wing brainwashing themselves. The unrelenting onslaught of Critical Theory and cultural Marxism of the last sixty years has rotted their brains, as it has rotted the brains of most commenting here.

    PROGRESSIVES TAKE NO PRIDE IN THE DEMOCRACIES THE WEST HAVE BUILT.

    Don’t tell me the Islamists can’t be wiped out.

    There was never a nation more intent than the Japanese. If there was ever going to be terrorist attacks in retribution for some cataclysmic attack you’d think it would come from the Japanese. They’re as quiet as mice.

    Comment by Redbaiter — November 15, 2015 @ 11:37 am

  45. Ok, I’ll bite. “The courage to take the fight to the terrorists and defeat them where they live sleep and eat.” Lead on.

    Comment by paritutu — November 15, 2015 @ 12:12 pm

  46. Neil, of course they’re not attacking FN strongholds – the whole point of creating a backlash is that they want to create that backlash across a wider section of society than simply FN strongholds. They’ve already got the FN where they want them.

    Comment by Can of Worms, Opened — November 15, 2015 @ 12:39 pm

  47. the whole point of creating a backlash is that they want to create that

    Then why attack France when such attacks have repeatedly failed to provoke such a response?

    Why not on Austria and Germany where the majority of refugees are heading. Why not in countries of Eastern Europe which have conservative govts.

    Why are the attacks on people ISIS describes as engaging in a life of sin. Perhaps there lies a more obvious motive – they hate some people and their lifestyle and they also want revenge.

    Comment by NeilM — November 15, 2015 @ 12:56 pm

  48. “Then why attack France when such attacks have repeatedly failed to provoke such a response?”

    What, like when France didn’t ban headscarves? Or when the French PM today didn’t suggest that people who ‘lack French Values’ should be stripped of their citizenship? Or how Le Pen hasn’t been surging in the polls/ Oh no, all that is stuff that is happening.

    Comment by Pascal's bookie — November 15, 2015 @ 1:14 pm

  49. Why not on Austria and Germany where the majority of refugees are heading. Why not in countries of Eastern Europe which have conservative govts.

    Maybe because those places aren’t involved in bombing ISIS in Iraq and Syria?

    Comment by Flashing Light — November 15, 2015 @ 1:55 pm

  50. The issue of religious attire in public life is a product of a long French tradition of State/ Church separation. It had nothing to do with ISIS.

    The FN predates ISIS by some considerable time.

    I don’t think it’s all that controversial to say that the vast majority of French haven’t wanted or taken part in anti-Muslim activities and neither has Hollande’s govt.

    Comment by NeilM — November 15, 2015 @ 1:56 pm

  51. Maybe because those places aren’t involved in bombing ISIS in Iraq and Syria?

    I mentioned revenge. Also revenge for Charlie Hebdo cartoons.

    Comment by NeilM — November 15, 2015 @ 2:09 pm

  52. I don’t think it’s all that controversial to say that the vast majority of French haven’t wanted or taken part in anti-Muslim activities and neither has Hollande’s govt.

    No, it’s not controversial. So uncontroversial no-one has said that they have. But nice straw-man!

    I mentioned revenge

    So there are multiple possible motives – and it also is entirely possible that ISIS holds all of them (because they are not contradictory ones). What is amusing is the way you are so certain that some of these apply, while demanding “evidence” for others.

    Comment by Flashing Light — November 15, 2015 @ 2:24 pm

  53. Danyl wrote: “…I feel safe predicting that an Islamic group carried out the attacks.” “Islamic” is the wrong term to describe these political terrorists. They are not “of Islam” in the same sense that, say, Islamic art is “of Islam”. Nor are all Islamists (ie, political Muslims) terrorists. I think it is more accurate to call the people behind these atrocious acts as “Islamist terrorists” (or suspected Islamist terrorists, until it is proven)..

    Comment by Kay — November 15, 2015 @ 5:55 pm

  54. This is an an interesting counterpoint to the widely discussed (and v good) Atlantic article that most everyone read and decided was the ur text on ISIS;

    http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/

    interviews with ISIS fighters captured in and around kirkuk

    Comment by Pascal's bookie — November 15, 2015 @ 6:08 pm

  55. Redbaiter @ 11.37am #45 How do you manage to protect your keyboard from froth and spittle when you write? Do you use a plastic cover?

    Comment by McNulty — November 15, 2015 @ 8:47 pm

  56. Syrian President Bashar al-Assad said Saturday that French policy had contributed to the “spread of terrorism” that culminated in attacks claimed by the Islamic State group which killed 128 people in Paris.

    http://news.yahoo.com/syrias-assad-paris-attacks-result-french-policy-115442310.html?soc_src=mediacontentsharebuttons&soc_trk=tw

    According to Assad it’s too late, the French have already done the damage and are reaping the consequences.

    Comment by NeilM — November 15, 2015 @ 9:27 pm

  57. “They are not “of Islam” in the same sense that, say, Islamic art is “of Islam”.”

    That is just dancing on the head of a pin.

    Comment by Matthew W — November 15, 2015 @ 9:46 pm

  58. “They are not “of Islam” in the same sense that, say, Islamic art is “of Islam”.”

    These are Wahhabist/Salafist Muslims fighting a holy war, this branch of Islam sees art as a decadence that detracts from the glory of God and the prophet. You could not be more wrong.

    Comment by unaha-closp — November 15, 2015 @ 10:08 pm

  59. Redbaiter @ 11.37am #45 How do you manage to protect your keyboard from froth and spittle when you write?

    If my keyboard needs protecting from anything its my tears at the stupidity of the average Progressive. As someone says above, dancing on the head of a pin but destroying the west at the same time.

    Why was it France? What was the motive? FFS, unbelievable. It doesn’t matter that it was France. Next time it will be Germany. Or the UK. Or the US. Or Canada. Or Australia.

    Islamists, jihadists, ISIS, whatever you prefer to call them have declared war on the West. They’re not attacking France per se. Or Germany. or even Europe. They’re attacking the whole western world, and you guys in your politically driven obstinacy are helping them.

    ISIS has the territory, it has the resources, it has most of all the momentum that a weak and divided West has granted them. This is serious. Try and get your minds above the John Key / Labour party factional progressive infighting. People are dying.This is serious.

    BTW, have any of you seen this video, or do you shut yourself off from truths that confront left wing conventional wisdom?

    Comment by Redbaiter — November 15, 2015 @ 11:02 pm

  60. I’d say what happened in Paris has more in common with the London 7/7 bombings. Especially if the perps are confirmed to be French-born and bred.

    Comment by Kumara Republic — November 16, 2015 @ 12:21 am

  61. doesn’t say much for the competence of France’s intelligence services
    John Key on the radio this morning revealed that terrorists are now using “dark communication” ie negligible monitorable chatter was detected before the attacks. This would tend to suggest that the vast quantities of metadata that are being collected in the name of making a safer world have been a bit of a waste of time.

    Comment by McNulty — November 16, 2015 @ 6:53 am

  62. Interesting response here “Anyone who uses hate speech has no place in France, and those places that preach hate are not places of prayer but are those of a sect. After this tragedy and the more than 100 deaths, now is the time to close these places of hate,” Chalghoumi, president of the imams’ conference of France, told the crowd.

    Comment by McNulty — November 16, 2015 @ 7:11 am

  63. ISIS has the territory, it has the resources, it has most of all the momentum that a weak and divided West has granted them.

    ISIS is no longer expanding the territory it control and is in fact losing on the battlefield (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/13/peshmerga-forces-sinjar-isis-oust-gunfire-kurdish). Its ability to project force outside of that territory is minimal – even the Paris attacks caused less death and damage than one well-placed cluster bomb from a fighter-bomber (which ISIS do not possess).

    Yes, people have died, and that sucks. But to turn this into some sort of existential threat to the West that requires an all-out war on “Islam” is exactly what ISIS wants. So it’s you, Redbaiter, who is playing the role of useful idiot.

    Comment by Andrew Geddis — November 16, 2015 @ 8:11 am

  64. Even if that was so, who cares what ISIS wants or does not want? We either defend Western civilisation or lose it to barbarians. I know the left hold that civilisation in pretty low regard Andrew so its no surprise to see you here advocating surrender. Stop reading the LW controlled MSM (the Guardian) and watch the video linked above. You think its just about ISIS you’re missing the point.

    Comment by Redbaiter — November 16, 2015 @ 9:07 am

  65. Even if that was so, who cares what ISIS wants or does not want? We either defend Western civilisation or lose it to barbarians.

    It’s a military axiom that without understanding your enemy you can’t defeat them. This is the essence of successful strategy; understanding how your enemy thinks in order to disrupt their efforts.
    This is of critical importance in 4GW conflict; even more so when you are attempting to combat an ideology that is not based on a rational foundation.

    In some ways, a more successful response might be to take lessons from epidemiology and public health.
    How could populations within our society susceptible to the contagion of radicalism be successfully inoculated? If there is an outbreak, how can it be contained?

    There’s also the issue of what is actually being defended; what is Western civilisation? Is it genuinely under threat and if so by whom?
    The issue is a little more complex than can be reduced to inflammatory, jingoistic bluster.

    Comment by Gregor W — November 16, 2015 @ 9:43 am

  66. We either defend Western civilisation or lose it to barbarians.

    The point is that ISIS and you are barbarians both. I choose to defend Western civilisation by remaining true to its ideals, commitments and promise, thanks, not by destroying the village in order to save it.

    Comment by Andrew Geddis — November 16, 2015 @ 9:49 am

  67. Wait Redbaiter I’m confused – I thought western civilisation has been under existential threat from cultural Marxists since 1918?

    Comment by Ortvin Sarapuu — November 16, 2015 @ 9:59 am

  68. “… not by destroying the village in order to save it…”

    Area bombing was arguably a war crime that violated ideals of liberal democracy. it also contributed significantly to the defeat of Hitler.

    Comment by Sanctuary — November 16, 2015 @ 10:02 am

  69. How could populations within our society susceptible to the contagion of radicalism be successfully inoculated?

    There’s always a small number of entitled, narcissistic young men (mostly they are men) in any population that will come together and act as we have seen.

    What appears to be happening is that new technology has given them the ability to communicate and develop a momentum previously not possible, or least in practical terms was much harder than just sitting in front of a computer.

    Entitled, narcissus and also grudge baring. If one looks at what ISIS is saying they hate the people they are killing – the killing is an objective in and of itself, it’s not some sort of complicated double cushion shot.

    Paris was chosen because they see it as sinful – “capital of abominations and perversions” – there’s a personal bitter animosity involved just as with CH.

    Comment by NeilM — November 16, 2015 @ 10:07 am

  70. Metaphor, Sanctuary, metaphor.

    Also, area bombing didn’t work out quite so well in Vietnam.

    Comment by Andrew Geddis — November 16, 2015 @ 10:07 am

  71. it also contributed significantly to the defeat of Hitler.

    The jury is still out on that 70 years later, Sanc.

    In terms of military effectiveness – that is, defeating the Nazi war machine – the effect was negligible.
    In terms of a terrorism tactic – that is inducing terror in the population (though notably, with negligible political effect) – the bombing or German cities was incredibly effective.

    Comment by Gregor W — November 16, 2015 @ 10:08 am

  72. Paris was chosen because they see it as sinful – “capital of abominations and perversions” – there’s a personal bitter animosity involved just as with CH.

    Really? I would have though Paris was chosen because it was the capital of France and the terrorists were, you know, French.

    Comment by Gregor W — November 16, 2015 @ 10:10 am

  73. What with “destroying to save” and bombing people back to the stone age, this all sounds familiar. So, here’s today’s Herald.

    “Prime Minister John Key and Vietnamese Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung today paid their respects to the people and Government of France in the wake of Paris terrorist attacks on Saturday. Mr Key and Mr Dung made their comments after their formal talks in Hanoi.

    Before the talks Mr Key paid his respects at the Monument for National Heroes and then at the Mausoleum for Ho Chi Minh.”

    In science fiction, monsters are obliterated. In human history, they are reassigned.

    Comment by sammy 3.0 — November 16, 2015 @ 10:16 am

  74. Wait Redbaiter I’m confused – I thought western civilisation has been under existential threat from cultural Marxists since 1918?

    Yes it has. Read above and sees who is for “multi-culturalism”. (as opposed to multi-racism and mono-culturalism)

    Comment by Redbaiter — November 16, 2015 @ 10:17 am

  75. @ Redbaited “do you shut yourself off from truths that confront conventional wisdom?” Unless you truly are a bot of some kind, it must have occurred to you at least once that the policies you seem to be advocating (wipe out the barbarians, “protect” Western civilization from undesirables etc etc) have been implemented many times before with absolutely disastrous results for the initiators? Or does your brain work like those of the gun nuts in the USA ie. “Another massacre? We must have more guns”

    Comment by McNulty — November 16, 2015 @ 10:24 am

  76. And here we have the entirely predictable yet ultimately meaningless political response…

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/paris-attacks/74060047/french-jets-attack-islamic-state-stronghold-of-raqqa.html

    Comment by Gregor W — November 16, 2015 @ 10:34 am

  77. Islamists, jihadists, ISIS, whatever you prefer to call them have declared war on the West. They’re not attacking France per se. Or Germany. or even Europe. They’re attacking the whole western world, and you guys in your politically driven obstinacy are helping them.

    They are attacking everybody, apart from the oil rich Sunni states. They are not specifically targeting the West.

    It is not about us, we do not motivate them. Only a Westerner with an enormous ego could look at this situation and think the actions of ISIS are due to something the West does.

    Comment by unaha-closp — November 16, 2015 @ 10:39 am

  78. @Redbaiter: So ISIS are cultural Marxists, or are we under two separate existential threats?

    Comment by Ortvin Sarapuu — November 16, 2015 @ 10:41 am

  79. McNulty- At its peak, the Nazi party had only 8 million members. (population of Germany at the time was 80 million) I’m sure the surviving European Jews didn’t see Hitler’s defeat as a disaster.

    Comment by Redbaiter — November 16, 2015 @ 10:48 am

  80. @OS,

    At the risk of going down the rabbit hole and drinking from the little bottle, I think the argument goes something like “cultural marxists have so enervated Western civilisation through their relentless progress through our institutions that it has opened up space for ideologies like radical Islam (and groups like ISIS) to operate.” There may or may not be a contribution from fluoride in our drinking water corrupting our pure essences.

    For a full description of Redbaiter’s views, however, you probably will need to consult Anders Behring Breivik’s Complete Manifesto “2083 – A European Declaration of Independence”. Because all threats to Western Civilisation must be eradicated root and branch, right?

    Comment by Andrew Geddis — November 16, 2015 @ 10:52 am

  81. “It is not about us, we do not motivate them. Only a Westerner with an enormous ego could look at this situation and think the actions of ISIS are due to something the West does”

    yeah nah. ‘Near enemy, far enemy’.

    It’s def not all about us, or even mostly about us, but yeah, it is about us to an extent. They don’t attack us for no reason. They are not stupid, and it’s not an art piece about hate or anything like that. There are many soft targets in the world that represent all the ‘freedom whisky sexy’ their propaganda goes on about but they choose to hit certain countries with certain histories and alliances.

    Comment by Pascal's bookie — November 16, 2015 @ 10:52 am

  82. Ortvin:. ISIS are a separate threat taking advantage of weaknesses opened up by cultural Marxists. They don’t want what cultural Marxists want. They want an Islamic caliphate, which may be a good thing for Progressives as it may give them a really good lesson in the old adage “you don’t know what you had until you have lost it”.

    Comment by Redbaiter — November 16, 2015 @ 10:54 am

  83. @Redbaiter – you do know that Nazi’s used pretty much exactly the same logic as yourself – i.e. the barbarism of the Slavic races, the decadence of cosmopolitanism / Western Civilisation – to justify their actions right?

    Comment by Gregor W — November 16, 2015 @ 10:58 am

  84. Andrew- That is an unnecessary smear. Breivik went out and shot unarmed defenseless people. A deranged coward. I am merely trying by persuasion and with little expectation of success to save you (and other Progressives) from yourself. The worst is its possibly too late for saving anything anyway. The degenerative slide seems inexplicably unstoppable.

    Comment by Redbaiter — November 16, 2015 @ 11:02 am

  85. Gregor- The Nazis were defeated by the forces of the civilised West. Britain. America. Canada. Australia. New Zealand. etc. I cheer for those countries and the cultures that existed at that time. Since then the culture of those countries has been radically changed by progressives, and as a result of those changes, they would melt like ice in the sun if another Hitler arose today. The political class reaction to militant Islam seems to prove the truth of this statement.

    Before Progressives start bleating about “standing with France” they should read this.

    Comment by Redbaiter — November 16, 2015 @ 11:12 am

  86. @Redbaiter,

    Breivik went out and shot unarmed defenseless people.

    Because he pretty much believed in what you do. There’s not many mild-mannered, multi-culture loving liberal humanists (albeit with a soupçon of Cultural Marxism in the mix) running out with guns and bombs to bring about their vision of how the world should be.

    I am merely trying by persuasion and with little expectation of success to save you (and other Progressives) from yourself.

    So … we’re not allowed to use the most extreme actions of the follower of a particular ideological belief system to taint all those who adhere to it? That will be the end of using Paris events as a justification for a war on Islam, then. Or, alternatively, maybe we could just view you as the Anjem Choudary of the NZ blogosphere – after all, he’s simply “trying by persuasion” to save the world from a greater evil.

    Comment by Andrew Geddis — November 16, 2015 @ 11:17 am

  87. The Nazis were defeated by the forces of the civilised West. Britain. America. Canada. Australia. New Zealand.

    Interesting. Here’s me thinking they were principally defeated the enormous sacrifices of godless Commies.
    Oh well.

    Comment by Gregor W — November 16, 2015 @ 11:19 am

  88. Gregor- You should not be so dismissive and disrespectful of the men who defeated the Nazis. They had so much that Progressives have taken from us. Watch the men in this video. Listen to their English. Look at their demeanour. Feel their quiet reserve and pride.

    Any of them remind you in anyway of John Key or Andrew Little? Malcolm Turnbull or David Cameron? Barack Obama?

    Not at all. Today’s politicians are from the generation spawned by Progressives, and they are starkly different men, and that is a fact that we should all regret immensely.

    Comment by Redbaiter — November 16, 2015 @ 11:35 am

  89. The political class reaction to militant Islam seems to prove the truth of this statement.

    A small number of Blame France people on the internet is not the political class. Hollande has taken action against ISIS and will continue to do so.

    Comment by NeilM — November 16, 2015 @ 11:35 am

  90. If this was 1945, Redbaiter would be telling us that it didn’t matter that Allied armies were defeating the Germans on every front – the fact that a V2 landed in London means we have to abandon progressivism and worship at the altar of megagenocide.

    Comment by Trouble Man — November 16, 2015 @ 11:39 am

  91. Redbaiter – I’m not dismissive of them. I’m dismissive of you.

    Comment by Gregor W — November 16, 2015 @ 11:53 am

  92. “Breivik went out and shot unarmed defenseless people.”

    Correction, he went out and shot cultural Marxists who pose an existential threat to western civilisation. The fact that they were unarmed and defenseless simply shows their incompetence. As you’ve said in this very thread, we’re in a war with cultural Marxists. As such, isn’t it simply the enemy’s stupidity if he goes around unarmed? Winston Churchill would not have failed to shoot a German soldier if he’d happened upon one who, through his own foolishness, was going around unarmed and unable to defend himself.

    Or do you deny that members of the Norwegian Labour party, an organisation that joined the Communist International in 1923 and is currently a participant in Socialist International meetings, constitutes a culturally Marxist body?

    Comment by Ortvin Sarapuu — November 16, 2015 @ 12:19 pm

  93. There’s not many mild-mannered, multi-culture loving liberal humanists (albeit with a soupçon of Cultural Marxism in the mix) running out with guns and bombs to bring about their vision of how the world should be.

    Joyce Thacker and Dr Sonia Sharp are two impeccably credentialed “mild-mannered, multi-culture loving liberal humanists”. They would have been perfectly acceptable on an internet forum or in academia.

    Comment by unaha-closp — November 16, 2015 @ 12:23 pm

  94. There is a calculated logic to the attacks on New York, London and Paris. It is not primarily about sending a message, it is about provoking an over reaction that will cause already disaffected muslims to become angry and therefore more easily radicalised. More terror attacks, more reaction and a very vicious spiral. This is fairly obvious. Why stir up a hornets nest?? Possibly because, like Christianity, Islam has an End of Time myth which is brought about by a major conflagration between the believers and the unbelievers when the faith’s supreme being will step in and bring about, in Islam’s case, a world wide Caliphate. Any action taken to bring this about, no matter how horrific, is justified by the end .

    Why attack NY, London and Paris ? These are the targets most likely to cause the most backlash. A few days ago a suicide bomber killed 80 people in Beiruit – how much attention did that get from the super powers?

    The point is not to over react like the Americans did after 9/11.

    Comment by BOF — November 16, 2015 @ 12:27 pm

  95. “…Correction, he went out and shot cultural Marxists who pose an existential threat to western civilisation…”

    I hope your comment is deleted and your IP address reported to the relevant security authorities. Anyone batshit crazy enough to publically approve of Brevik’s actions is a clear threat to public safety.

    Comment by Sanctuary — November 16, 2015 @ 12:31 pm

  96. *whooosh**

    Comment by Gregor W — November 16, 2015 @ 12:37 pm

  97. Oh dear. Sanc appears to have committed the newbie sin of not reading the full comment thread before leaping to his conclusions.

    Comment by Flashing Light — November 16, 2015 @ 12:46 pm

  98. @Sanc: Not only ironic that you don’t get the point, doubly ironic that you’re advocating shopping me to the authorities, what with your prior ironclad stance against government monitoring of social media

    Comment by Ortvin Sarapuu — November 16, 2015 @ 12:57 pm

  99. @Ortvin – to be fair to Sanc though, in true apparatchik style he asking Danyl to censor and inform on you, so he gets to keep the moral high ground….

    Comment by Gregor W — November 16, 2015 @ 1:35 pm

  100. …could be organised and carried out doesn’t say much for the competence of France’s intelligence services

    It was organised in Belgium.

    Which suggest the opposite of what you claim.

    Comment by NeilM — November 16, 2015 @ 2:17 pm

  101. It was organised in Belgium.

    Which suggest the opposite of what you claim.

    Au contraire! If the French intelligence services can’t even spy on the Belgians properly, what earthly use are they?

    Comment by Flashing Light — November 16, 2015 @ 2:26 pm

  102. Gimme a break, I’m not a full time layabout like you lot, I have to reinforce my prejudices in between meetings and other very important stuff.

    Comment by Sanctuary — November 16, 2015 @ 3:39 pm

  103. “Gimme a break, I’m not a full time layabout like you lot,”

    Seriously did you get Redbaiters’ script?

    Comment by Ortvin Sarapuu — November 16, 2015 @ 5:41 pm

  104. “…Seriously did you get Redbaiters’ script..?”

    I think we’ve already established I hadn’t read the thread properly. However, I have retained my sense of humour.

    Comment by Sanctuary — November 16, 2015 @ 6:20 pm

  105. I prefer to think of myself as a member of the precariat economically disenfranchised by the neoliberal fundamentalist Key government and their American handlers rather than a layabout, but you’re basically right

    Comment by kalvarnsen — November 16, 2015 @ 8:57 pm

  106. Jeez but. It’s a real drag about that situation in Paris, though isn’t it?

    Comment by Lee Clark — November 17, 2015 @ 7:15 am


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