The Dim-Post

June 9, 2016

Provisional design

Filed under: Uncategorized — danylmc @ 8:43 am

As mused about here:

teeshirt

31 Comments »

  1. I identify as the guy in the background

    A.

    Comment by Antoine — June 9, 2016 @ 8:57 am

  2. There’s a range of images here that put me in mind of my fellow overly-invested commentators: https://nz.pinterest.com/madcityhaunt/evil-clowns/ … can we customise?

    Comment by Andrew Geddis — June 9, 2016 @ 9:18 am

  3. The perfect gym wear. Now, where’s the one of you as Spiderman?

    Comment by Tinakori — June 9, 2016 @ 9:44 am

  4. Alex throws droogs Dim and Georgie into the lake. Dim later did alright on TV.

    Comment by Joe W — June 9, 2016 @ 10:50 am

  5. What a unique insight into other people’s minds. This is my mental model of DP commentators https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uel1vfAQ52M

    Comment by Robert Singers — June 9, 2016 @ 11:30 am

  6. Danyl does have a bit of Alex’s suspicion of the State.

    Comment by NeilM — June 9, 2016 @ 1:31 pm

  7. And on the back, Dim’s revenge the scene at the trough.

    Comment by unaha-closp — June 9, 2016 @ 1:44 pm

  8. “6.Danyl does have a bit of Alex’s suspicion of the State.”

    Which is odd for someone who relies, for their lifestyle, on the coercive power of the state to raise taxes.

    Comment by Clunking Fist — June 9, 2016 @ 2:29 pm

  9. Which is odd for someone who relies, for their lifestyle, on the coercive power of the state to raise taxes.

    Everyone in NZ relies for their lifestyle on the coercive power of the state to raise taxes, without exception. That doesn’t rule out a healthy skepticism of the government and its various servants.

    Comment by Psycho Milt — June 9, 2016 @ 3:46 pm

  10. The state doesn’t coerce me to pay my taxes. I’m more than happy to help support the lifestyle we all would like to think of as being at least minimum. What I don’t understand is people who think they aren’t part of society….and resent helping out.

    Petulant babies.

    Comment by truthseekernz — June 9, 2016 @ 5:01 pm

  11. Does the t-shirt suggest Danyl is planning a change to his moderating style?

    Comment by NeilM — June 10, 2016 @ 8:02 am

  12. “10.The state doesn’t coerce me to pay my taxes”

    au contraire

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3574316/Tax-dodger-Lance-James-off-to-jail

    Comment by Clunking Fist — June 10, 2016 @ 9:57 am

  13. Oops, pushed “post” too quickly.

    “What I don’t understand is people who think they aren’t part of society”
    I’m not comfortable for my taxes to be used to fight wars overseas, particularly if I suspect the objective of the war is to prevent American consumers paying market price for their petrol. I can’t register a protest by not paying taxes.

    Comment by Clunking Fist — June 10, 2016 @ 9:59 am

  14. “Everyone in NZ relies for their lifestyle on the coercive power of the state to raise taxes,”

    “How can you be so obtuse?”
    If your salary or wage is paid by the state, the state get the money to do that by taking money off workers in the private sector. (Please don’t make me explain how govt workers, effectively, don’t pay tax.)

    Comment by Clunking Fist — June 10, 2016 @ 10:10 am

  15. au contraire

    Coercion is fairly subjective.
    If truthseekernz believes that they are not being subject to coercion (that is, using of force / threats to persuade an unwilling person into compliance) then by definition, he/she is not being coerced. The contract is voluntary.

    Obviously, the same is not true for others who are unwilling to pay tax for whatever reason.
    However, It’s no more of a valid example than that the odd person who likes to beat people up for fun supposing that they are subject to coercion by the State via the Crimes Act.

    Comment by Gregor W — June 10, 2016 @ 3:57 pm

  16. If your salary or wage is paid by the state, the state get the money to do that by taking money off workers in the private sector. (Please don’t make me explain how govt workers, effectively, don’t pay tax.)

    I think you do probably need to explain this given that the Income tax take doesn’t cover core State expenditure.
    And how about 45% of GDP is State expenditure, a significant chuck of which is spend in the private sector.
    And how heaps of people receive WFF to offset low wages, which make most of the middle class at least partially employed by the State in a technical sense.
    And how the enforcement of contract and property rights that supports the private sector trade pretty much can’t exist without some form of central governing authority.
    But whatevs…

    Comment by Gregor W — June 10, 2016 @ 4:05 pm

  17. There’s definitely a whiff of meta about this thread.

    Comment by McNulty — June 10, 2016 @ 5:52 pm

  18. “Coercion is fairly subjective.”
    “noun 1. the use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance. 2. force or the power to use force in gaining compliance, as by a government or police force”
    Lol, at least you didn’t say it was a social construct. (I’m not disputing my governments right to use force, I’m just disputing your idea that having it in the govt’s arsenal doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.)
    If I beat you up, I am directly breeching your rights. Which of your rights are directly infringed if I’m late paying my taxes?

    Comment by Clunking Fist — June 11, 2016 @ 10:08 am

  19. “I think you do probably need to explain this given that the Income tax take doesn’t cover core State expenditure.”
    Eh? “Total core Crown revenue for the 2014/15 year was $72.2 billion. Tax revenue is the major source of core Crown revenue; this totalled $66.6 billion in the 2014/15 financial year.” It includes that regressive tax: GST. http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/revenue

    “And how about 45% of GDP is State expenditure”
    Yep. Economists call this “crowding out”.

    “And how heaps of people receive WFF to offset low wages, which make most of the middle class at least partially employed by the State in a technical sense.”
    Employed? Lol, no it doesn’t, it means their net tax is lower than it would be without WFF. Same as it would be is we had a UBI (chant with me: “U-B-I! U-B-I!”). But they still all pay GST, so “all good” from HM Revenue point of view.
    I and most of my friends are middle class with 2 to 3 children: none of us receive WFF. “Most of the middle class” do you have a link to any numbers, I am genuinely surprised if this is true.

    “And how the enforcement of contract and property rights that supports the private sector trade pretty much can’t exist without some form of central governing authority.”
    Yay, the part of the “social contract” that I am comfortable with! It means I don’t have to result to force to stop my neighbor discharging sewerage onto my property: the state will do it for me in what we all hope is a proportionate way!
    Which part of the social contract allows my government to take money off me and support US government troops abroad who are fighting groups who, just last year or so, were ARMED AND FINANCED by that same US government? How do I contract out of that madness?

    What I DON’T need my government to do is run advertisements on prime-time TV extolling the virtues of electronic stability control. If it is so good, why don’t they simply adopt regulations specifying ESC on all new or imported cars from date X? (With an exemption for classics, of course.) Within about 10 years, pretty much all cars on the road will have ESC, and little or no tax money will have been spent, yay, win!
    It must be galling to be an a low income, needing to replace your car, and see that at all the cars in your price range lack ESC. It’s like cleaners, cleaning all those government offices. They must love it when the government extolls the virtues of free ECE. Shame that free ECE isn’t available in the evenings and weekends when they go off to work. There’s a REAL example of middle-class welfare (other than the nice jobs created and sustained by producing and running ads about ESC, lol).

    Comment by Clunking Fist — June 11, 2016 @ 10:30 am

  20. lol

    Comment by Jake — June 11, 2016 @ 12:42 pm

  21. Where’s Sanc when you need him

    A.

    Comment by Antoine — June 11, 2016 @ 1:17 pm

  22. Let’s pray Clunker didn’t cut any of Gregor’s main cables.

    Comment by Rex — June 11, 2016 @ 1:22 pm

  23. Where’s Sanc when you need him

    Comment by Joe W — June 11, 2016 @ 1:50 pm

  24. @CF

    #18 – I didn’t say coercion didn’t exist. I specifically said that taxation can only be viewed as coercion if the subject is unwilling.

    #19 – I specifically stated income tax does not cover core State expenditure. GST is not income tax. Non payment of income tax (o rather, withholding other peoples income tax) was the gist of your link.
    I’d also like to understand how you expect all those core services that are apparently paid for by extorting private sector employed citizens would be equitably (if not necessarily efficiently) delivered.

    Comment by Gregor W — June 11, 2016 @ 5:12 pm

  25. also @ #18 – I wasn’t bringing up the moral equivalence of a crime against a person versus the State.
    Just pointing out that depending on the POV of the subject, any restriction of agency in an attempt to modify behaviour backed up by force can reasonably be viewed as coercion.

    Comment by Gregor W — June 11, 2016 @ 5:17 pm

  26. “any restriction of agency in an attempt to modify behaviour backed up by force can reasonably be viewed as coercion.”
    Yes. Are you saying that we agree that taxation is coercion, then?

    “I specifically said that taxation can only be viewed as coercion if the subject is unwilling.”
    I heard you, I just think you are wrong.

    ” I specifically stated income tax does not cover core State expenditure. GST is not income tax.”
    Yep, and that’s a bit strawman, as I can’t see where I actually said “income tax”. The common taxes paid by workers (state or otherwise) are income tax, GST and excise. Income tax paid by companies and trusts are, effectively, on behalf of individuals/workers.

    Comment by Clunking Fist — June 11, 2016 @ 5:40 pm

  27. I like that shirt. Don’t want to offend, but is it not possible that the shirt might outsell, say, a book? Why not market the shirt, and use the considerable proceeds to launch further books?

    Comment by John Elliott — June 11, 2016 @ 5:43 pm

  28. Are you saying that we agree that taxation is coercion, then?

    Not. Once again and as prefaced “…depending on the POV of the subject….”.
    However, as you disagree with my position of coercion being subjective (based on willingness) as opposed to the violence (in this case imprisonment) which is obviously objective, we’ve reached a philosophical impasse.

    Yep, and that’s a bit strawman, as I can’t see where I actually said “income tax”

    Agreed that you didn’t say it. However, your per the first para of your link “Property developer Lance James has been jailed for dodging eight years of income tax and using PAYE deductions to prop up his failing companies”, I think I reasonably inferred that the subject of what you regard as coercion is the payment of income tax.

    Comment by Gregor W — June 11, 2016 @ 6:19 pm

  29. @Joe

    You’re awesome

    A.

    Comment by Antoine — June 12, 2016 @ 12:09 am

  30. “However, as you disagree with my position of coercion being subjective (based on willingness)”
    But that’s BS right there: at all times one claims to be “willing”, one KNOWS what happens if one decides to become “unwilling”.

    “However, your per the first para of your link “Property developer Lance James has been jailed for dodging eight years of income tax and using PAYE deductions ‘
    Obtuse? The point wasn’t the tax types, the point was: this is what happens to you if you don’t hand over the money the state says you should. And remember: the IRD has only to prove on the balance of probability, rather than the beyond reasonable doubt when I “beat people up for fun” from your post.

    @15 “Coercion is fairly subjective. … The contract is voluntary.”
    Cool: how do I opt out? I’m trying to avoid going all Sandinista on the state, you see.

    Comment by Clunking Fist — June 12, 2016 @ 12:28 pm

  31. It certainly didn’t take long for the old ladies to start hitting people with their hand bags.

    Comment by Robert Singers — June 12, 2016 @ 10:04 pm


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