The Dim-Post

September 13, 2016

Ever decreasing circles

Filed under: Uncategorized — danylmc @ 5:39 am

Via TVNZ:

There are fresh worries for Labour following the latest ONE News Colmar Brunton poll.

The party has slipped three points to 26 per cent. That’s the lowest it’s been in the ONE News poll since the last election when it recorded 25 per cent.

National, however, remains in fine form riding high, steady this month at 48 per cent, the same result it picked up on election night in 2014.

The Greens are trucking along solidly up one per cent to 13, although the big mover is New Zealand First which is up to two points in our poll to 11 per cent. The Maori Party has also had a small gain up one, to two per cent.

My current theory of New Zealand politics is that the party voter bases look roughly like this:

linearvenn

People are often surprised when there’s lots of political activity, and then a poll comes out and National haven’t shifted. I reckon this is because no one but Winston Peters is contesting their voters. Probably there was some movement during that period: people churning between the Greens and Labour and Labour and New Zealand First as the opposition parties all try and peel off their ‘next available voters’ from one another. We wouldn’t expect any of that to move current National voters – and it doesn’t.

52 Comments »

  1. Absolutely zero overlap between Labour and National?

    I guess the subsidiary question is, is this your perception of NZ politics as it is now, or is this something that could potentially change over the course of, say, a couple of years?

    Comment by Ortvin Sarapuu — September 13, 2016 @ 6:09 am

  2. Home ownership rate: 60% plus. Superannuation: no change, ever – guaranteed! Yeah, baby …

    The other 40% will be shitting in our doorways, but who cares? Most of us mortgage millionaires will stay on these blue pills until the apocalypse. Kids, fuck ’em.

    Comment by sammy 2.0 — September 13, 2016 @ 6:57 am

  3. Those numbers add to 98%. Do people who might or mightn’t vote at all factor into this somewhere?

    Comment by izogi — September 13, 2016 @ 7:03 am

  4. Nats have been moving to the left all term, chasing the electorate. Labour has nowhere to go positionally on most things. Nats can’t keep moving left but will probably get re-elected with Winston, which means they probably will lose in 2020 to a “time for a change” campaign.

    Comment by RHT — September 13, 2016 @ 8:06 am

  5. Amazing political analysis based off one poll. Is this what you were saying when Reid Research had National down and Labour up?

    Comment by Jamesy — September 13, 2016 @ 8:18 am

  6. For whatever reason the political landscape here and in the UK is not favourable to Labour.

    In Britain Labour is well and truely screwed with Corbyn. The disconnect between the rhetoric of The People’s Movement and what the People are actually doing politically is quite remarkable:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/12/one-year-on-jeremy-corbyn-has-transformed-british-politics

    There seems to a similar situation here although not as extreme.

    Comment by NeilM — September 13, 2016 @ 8:30 am

  7. NeilM is as always playing his role as a willing dolt by mindlessly repeating received right wing opinion. Without getting into Corbyn to much, the most vicious attacks on Corbyn come entirely from within the establishment, liberal “left”. The fact is the establishment left in the West is a broken reed. Hopelessly compromised by neoliberalism and identity politics (it is telling the worst smears the Blairites can think up involve gender and screeching accusations of anti-semitism – the vicious identity politics of the university student union transferred to the national stage) and it’s rejection not just of socialism but democratic socialism the European establishment left is lurching towards irrelevancy. Corbyn is a clean break with Blairism, third way identity politics and the compromised establishment left because he was never co-opted into that now discredited political path. Corbyn might not win the next election. But he is creating a UK Labour movement that will win the one after that, and with a mandate for readical, 1945 like change. That is why he is so loathed and feared. But the reason Corbyn (and Sanders for that matter) attract so many young people despite their age is they represent about the last institutional memory of a better way, and they can reach from the past across the generation of neoliberal greed to offer the most valuable political enticement of all to the young – hope and idealism.

    I was thinking about this poll last night, and how basically every poll simply shows the left (if you call NZ First “left”) re-arranging the votes amongst themselves. Labour’s crisis is ideological. It is marooned in the 1990s. It is hopelessly out of date, clinging to neoliberal centrist managerialism and third way politics. It has no credible message of hope and no appeal to idealism. It just offers more of the same but somehow better. It’s MPs are drawn from to narrow a base – trade unions, student union careerists and horse traded identity politics has beens – and it has to many MPs on the list, which is used as a guarantee for incumbency rather than a tool for the promotion of vigour and talent.

    Labour’s ideological crisis and intellectual listlessness affects performance. The NZ PLP comes across to me as lacking enthusiasm, lacking dynamism and in general full of medicore ticket punchers. Little has done great work in stopping the infighting, but he is no Savage or Kirk or even a Lange – a charismatic leader capable of enunciating a grand vision of sunlit uplands as an antidote to Key’s politics of the ordinary as a virtue. Apart from Little though I would struggle to name Labours shadow cabinet. Twyford is very good, King is health? Whats his name – the deputy leader, ah yes, Robertson – is finance I think. No idea about the rest.

    The point is Labour urgently needs something to drag it into the 21st century, and above all it needs a leader that has charisma, and demands dynamism and performance from his team. That something, it seems to me, has to be a bottom up surge of demand for change, an empowering of the membership and yes, maybe a return to more radical policies that at least contain some coherent idea of a better New Zeland that allows supporters to roar them with fire in their belly and hope in their eyes. It will have to come from below, because it seems to me that the current NZ PLP is full of plump and lazy turkeys whose only real policy is not voting for Xmas.

    Comment by Sanctuary — September 13, 2016 @ 9:10 am

  8. I kind of feel like maybe the last time UK Labour spent two decades in opposition building a social movement that it didn’t work out all that well for working people.

    Comment by Trouble Man — September 13, 2016 @ 9:42 am

  9. When I first glanced at the Venn, I noticed a small darker circle completely within the National area and just to the right of Winston First. Thought that this must represent United Furure, but it was just a grease spot on my monitor.

    Comment by unaha-closp — September 13, 2016 @ 10:15 am

  10. Could I also add, with some irony (having voted for it myself, twice), that MMP is implicated in all this. Yes it forces National left and allows us to avoid the worst of a Ruthanasia redux, but it does in this present era of identity politics etc mean that the Left is allowed to specialise and partition, at its cost to traditional class based politics. As we know, the L-R blocks aren’t so very far apart, but the rich have stayed more or less as one coherent whole. Institutionally it is simpler to coordinate and maintain power. It’s the same reason one big corporate can out compete 4 smaller firms. The span of control, reduced complexity and risk because you don’t need to coordinate across to other parties as much etc all simplifies the job of achieving and maintaining power for the Nats and we shouldn’t forget that.

    That nice man John Key wouldn’t look nearly so clever if Nats were 25% and he had to keep a Winston and a Greens combined about the same size happy. But that’s not his lot in politics, and it isn’t because he is so brilliant, it’s because he’s on the right at this point in time. Now what I do wonder is whether Labour could ever regain its 2002 position where the roles were more or less reversed. Would it take different times? Or just a better leader? Was it just an one off artefact of its time, when Nats were still playing out the post FFP, new MMP, post Winston etc world, never to be repeated? Because they’ve certainly figured out how to make MMP work for them since, no question of that.

    Comment by Joe-90 — September 13, 2016 @ 11:52 am

  11. “Labour’s ideological crisis and intellectual listlessness affects performance. The NZ PLP comes across to me as lacking enthusiasm, lacking dynamism and in general full of medicore ticket punchers” Its your own mirror Sanctuary. As you have noted you have no idea who is doing what portfolio, or even what the policies are- apart from they are somehow ‘bad’ and what we need is our own Corbyn who will ‘reignite the masses’ or some such other blather. he is amoung the most mediocre of UK labour politicians, who has zero leadership abilities and talks in the decrepit of 60s sound bites, which to marvel of his supporters he really believes in. Germany has its far left group as a left over from its days in East Germany, the UK could likely support an 8% party if it too had MMP. Zero chance of it happening

    Comment by duker — September 13, 2016 @ 11:56 am

  12. Could I also add, with some irony (having voted for it myself, twice), that MMP is implicated in all this.

    Back in 2002, National got 20.93% of the vote and Labour got 41.26%. Everyone was talking about how MMP would usher in a Scandinavian-style politics where a strong Center-Left party would enjoy a near hegemonic dominance over government due to the Right’s inability to coalesce. Then things changed.

    So I guess the message is, don’t assume that how things now are is how they will always be … and don’t assume that what has happened had to happen because of how we vote. After all, if ACT hadn’t turned out to be such a bunch of complete numpties, could National have so successfully cannibalised their share of the vote?

    Comment by Andrew Geddis — September 13, 2016 @ 12:12 pm

  13. Is Andrew Little’s announcement that he will today release his own internal polling showing the One News poll to be “bogus” his most idiotic decision yet?

    Comment by Matthew Hooton — September 13, 2016 @ 1:00 pm

  14. Is Andrew Little’s announcement that he will today release his own internal polling showing the One News poll to be “bogus” his most idiotic decision yet?

    It does feel a little NZRFU internal investigation-ish.

    Comment by Gregor W — September 13, 2016 @ 1:08 pm

  15. Labour’s internal poll has them at 31, N 40, G 14, NZF 11. I doubt N are that low, but still. More in line with Reid and other UMRs, in terms of trend.

    Comment by RHT — September 13, 2016 @ 1:12 pm

  16. “Back in 2002, National got 20.93% of the vote and Labour got 41.26%. Everyone was talking about how MMP would usher in a Scandinavian-style politics where a strong Center-Left party would enjoy a near hegemonic dominance over government due to the Right’s inability to coalesce. Then things changed.”

    One of the common elements between then and now is that both Labour and National were harmed by their alliances with Winston Peters,National’s disastrously post 97/98 and Labour pretty badly post 2008.

    Labour’s problems this time round seem to me to be more self-inflicted, in which case I tend to agree with Sanctuary’s diagnosis but not at all with his cure.

    The reason there hasn’t been a credible left wing approach to economics and therefore the ability to escape the neoliberal stain is that there isn’t a credible left wing economic approach to economics. I’ve seen heaps of attempts but the NZ ones, especially the ambitious ones, seem hopelessly reactionary, harking back to the golden era of the 50s, 60s and 70s. The most recent I encountered was an attempt to recreate the forest/wood industry of the 60s, 70s and 80s.

    I thought Andrew Little was going to lead the left out of this blind alley and be a credible Labour leader with national appeal, his EPMU background having equipped to both manage and lead. But he seems incapable of lifting his sights and still operates with an “us” against “them” approach, which I don’t is the way coarticulate a national vision and broaden the left’s appeal. If the “rich” as someone noted above equals National’s vote or poll share, then the free market really has done the trick and perhaps the left should be having another look at neoliberalism and asking why it worked. Bryan Perry’s work on household incomes released last week has lots of lessons for political parties across the political spectrum but I think they are often ones that the left especially does not want to hear.

    Comment by Tinakori — September 13, 2016 @ 1:17 pm

  17. “…which I don’t think is the way to articulate a national vision and broaden the left’s appeal.”

    Comment by Tinakori — September 13, 2016 @ 1:27 pm

  18. @duker –

    where is the no nonsense ZB soundbite on Nikolas Delegat, from an outraged Labour justice spokeperson promising equal justice for all once in power?
    where is Grant Robertson darkly hinting that the 252 people worth more than $50m in un-New Zealand and declaring he’ll look into them personally when minister of finance?
    where is the health spokesperson eating hospital food for a month and daring the minister to do the same?

    This shouldn’t be hard. MPs just need to listen to talkback radio for an hour or two, put a left wing spin on it, and FFS get amongst it.

    Where is a bold regional development strategy? If you were to come up with a 200 page regional development policy based on successful examples around the world that involved some subsidies Labour MPs wouldn’t seize on it to win votes in the provinces, they would see the word subsidy and piss themselves with fear that someone will accuse them of being socialists with the failed policies of the past. Labour has forgotten it exists to govern the country, not manage it.

    Comment by Sanctuary — September 13, 2016 @ 2:25 pm

  19. LABOUR JUSTICE SPOKESPERSON PROMISES POLITICAL INTERFERENCE IN JUSTICE SYSTEM

    LABOUR FINANCE SPOKESPERSON PROMISES TO TURN IRD INTO KGB

    nobody cares about hospital food

    LABOUR PRODUCES 200 PAGE POLICY, UNREAD BY ALL

    Comment by Trouble Man — September 13, 2016 @ 5:37 pm

  20. Trouble Man , indeed.
    I do look forward to Labour finding their own Corbyn, they will cease to be a credible main opposition party a nanosecond later. The thing that people like Sanctuary never seem to understand is the world has moved on from weirdos like Corbyn , his politics have failed massively before and if given the chance will fail equally massively again and depending on the degree of damage he will be able to inflict to his countrys economy if god forbid he was ever elected it usually means a Ruth Richardson type is usually to follow promising to clean up the mess he has made.
    Here’s hoping they find a Corbyn though, maybe then Labour could implode and be put out of its misery.

    Comment by Cliff Clavin — September 13, 2016 @ 6:26 pm

  21. There’s a big circle missing: those too cynical and/or transient to vote at all.

    As the Brexit vote shows, a lot of left-behind blue-collar types may be ditching the UK mainstream parties and turning to the likes of UKIP. The general secretary of Britain’s biggest trade union has commented as such:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-voters-want-to-give-the-establishment-a-kicking-says-unite-union-boss-len-mccluskey-a7237476.html

    In America, the Rust Belt appears to be warming to Donald Trump. The same could be happening in NZ with Winston First.

    Comment by Kumara Republic (@kumararepublic) — September 13, 2016 @ 6:43 pm

  22. It’s the economy, stupid.

    Comment by Eltalstro — September 13, 2016 @ 6:46 pm

  23. The Dim-Post wrote: > a:hover { color: red; } a { text-decoration: none; color: #0088cc; } a.primaryactionlink:link, a.primaryactionlink:visited { background-color: #2585B2; color: #fff; } a.primaryactionlink:hover, a.primaryactionlink:active { background-color: #11729E !important; color: #fff !important; } /* @media only screen and (max-device-width: 480px) { .post { min-width: 700px !important; } } */ WordPress.com danylmc posted: “Via TVNZ: There are fresh worries for Labour following the latest ONE News Colmar Brunton poll. The party has slipped three points to 26 per cent. That’s the lowest it’s been in the ONE News poll since the last election when it recorded 25 per cent. “

    Comment by Nathanael Dei Gratia — September 13, 2016 @ 6:54 pm

  24. The same poll reported the day before that anti-immigration sentiment spike upward 11%. Seems significant that Nat support remains unchanged: the 2% shift away last summer was repeated in the winter poll, but now that shift by centrists has stalled. My read is that centrists dislike the policy – but for most of them it’s not enough to stop them supporting the Nats.

    Likewise, no evidence here that the housing market is alienating centrists, so I’m with Eltalstro at this point: it’s the economy, stupid (the ole Bill Clinton line). Complacency rules. Angst about victims & losers isn’t contagious enough to be politically decisive.

    That Guardian report NeilM linked us to (#2) is interesting. It’s an identity politics frame and show centrists now decisively out-numbering both the left & right. Also, it’s a pan-generational bell curve symmetric about the centre (with only those over 65 being skewed to the right).

    I agree with this from RHT: Nats have been moving to the left all term, chasing the electorate. And this from Sanctuary: the establishment left in the West is a broken reed. Hopelessly compromised by neoliberalism and identity politics .. the reason Corbyn (and Sanders for that matter) attract so many young people despite their age is they represent about the last institutional memory of a better way, and they can reach from the past across the generation of neoliberal greed to offer the most valuable political enticement of all to the young – hope and idealism.. Labour’s ideological crisis and intellectual listlessness affects performance..Labour urgently needs something to drag it into the 21st century, and above all it needs a leader that has charisma, and demands dynamism and performance from his team.

    Tinakori’s point (there isn’t a credible left wing economic approach to economics) seems salient. Labour won’t abandon neoliberalism unless a viable alternative is available. It can’t support the kind of radical economics that western civilisation requires – that prescription would make it unelectable. Democracy seems a recipe for disaster – thus the proliferation of doomsters since the advent of the millennium. So, with mainstreamers from the left, right & centre all doing the zombie march together, no wonder JK makes everyone feel okay. Just keep that magic money machine churning out those imaginary dollars…

    Comment by Dennis Frank — September 13, 2016 @ 8:24 pm

  25. where is the health spokesperson eating hospital food for a month and daring the minister to do the same?

    This shouldn’t be hard. MPs just need to listen to talkback radio for an hour or two, put a left wing spin on it, and FFS get amongst it.

    I work in the health sector and my wife in tertiary education. We both see quite a lot of discontent at work but no one is saying Labour is a solution and Labour don’t seem to be even away of what workers are discontent with.

    They would rather go on about the TPP which is only a big deal for left wing activists.

    Comment by NeilM — September 13, 2016 @ 8:31 pm

  26. There is no one contesting National at all. Bill English is hiding behind his Treasury bull shit about balancing books and government spending on public goods have been frozen ever since national took power.
    There is no housing crisis (anywhere) especially not in Auckland. Water pollution is caused by birds and nothing else.

    The Nats have favoured their business mates every which way and the business community funds them very very well. No other party gets that sort of funding.

    What is remaining of the media is pretty skeletal.

    There is a revolution in waiting,, via social media,, polls become irrelevant..

    Voter turnout becomes even more important and social media can (will) play a major role in that.

    Comment by peterlepaysan — September 13, 2016 @ 8:41 pm

  27. Peterlepayson, your thought on fire melting steel?

    Comment by Cliff Clavin — September 13, 2016 @ 11:29 pm

  28. Your missing the increasing circle, the people that dont vote because they cant tell the difference between the gweens and the gnats.

    That circle of enlightenment is bigger than the natonal one.

    Comment by Simon — September 14, 2016 @ 9:30 am

  29. @ cliff

    My thought on fire melting steel- it happens. How do you think we get all those bendy bits and box sections of steel?

    Comment by insider — September 14, 2016 @ 9:45 am

  30. 1.Absolutely zero overlap between Labour and National?

    That isn’t right, National have spent the last decade contesting Labour voters with a great deal of success. The John Key/Bill English policy of today bears a stronger resemblance to the 3rd way line of Helen Clark/Michael Cullen, than anything under Bolger or Shipley or Brash.

    I reckon this is because no one but Winston Peters is contesting their voters.

    To be a contest for votes there would need to be contention on the part of National. National have formed a coalition with the Maori Party (even when they don’t need the numbers); they’ve been supportive of gay marriage; they are pro-immigration; anti-smacking; partial asset selling; free trade dealing, super city creating – all of which is anathema to the Winston Peters vote. The National government haven’t been in contest with Winston much at all, they’ve been telling his voters to piss off most of the time.

    Apart from asset sales and charter schools John Key does what Helen Clark did. National contest for the Labour party vote. Even the charter schools are a play for Labour Party voters, they are opening up schools in poor areas and offering traditional Labour voters a choice.

    Comment by unaha-closp — September 14, 2016 @ 9:51 am

  31. Cliff, your thought on anything at all?

    Comment by paritutu — September 14, 2016 @ 10:37 am

  32. “…LABOUR JUSTICE SPOKESPERSON PROMISES POLITICAL INTERFERENCE IN JUSTICE SYSTEM…”

    First, it means Labour is being talked about. Second, the only people who will be worried about political interference are lawyers, academics and the dismal assortment of urban hipsters that actually worries about that sort of thing. The rest of the population will nod in approval and exclaim “about bloody time! Those namby pamby judges and their wet bus tickets! They need to live in the real world!”

    LABOUR FINANCE SPOKESPERSON PROMISES TO TURN IRD INTO KGB

    Or, Labour stands up for the little guy.

    nobody cares about hospital food

    no, but they like the idea of a high and mighty parliamentarian getting real and walking in an ordinary punters shoes, unlike the arrogant and out of touch minister which is the dogwhistle here.

    LABOUR PRODUCES 200 PAGE POLICY, UNREAD BY ALL

    True, but the extracts on spending money on the provinces will be read in the local paper and the soundbites heard on the radio, especially if you spin it as a policy designed to help the average Kiwi battler in New Plymouth.

    The point is, Labour needs to get a message, stick to it, and get a team willing, enthusiastic and energetic enough to promote it.

    Comment by Sanctuary — September 14, 2016 @ 10:47 am

  33. Everyone was talking about how MMP would usher in a Scandinavian-style politics where a strong Center-Left party would enjoy a near hegemonic dominance over government due to the Right’s inability to coalesce..

    Can you really assume that this is not actually what has happened? If you did question that assumption – or better yet, dismiss it entirely – might that not help Labour gain power?

    …maybe a return to more radical policies that at least contain some coherent idea of a better New Zeland that allows supporters to roar them with fire in their belly and hope in their eyes….

    The Left as it would hope to be…

    The Dim-Post wrote: > a:hover { color: red; } a { text-decoration: none; color: #0088cc; }

    The Left as it is.

    Fire in the belly with what? Another Welfare For Families scheme? Another Interest Free Student Loans deal? Or as others have pointed out, a regression into a dim, distant past of slow-moving industries and economies where state ownership or detailed, prescriptive state control via legislation can work?

    You should fly back to Spain, Catalonia in particular, from where such lengthy pronouncements would have at least the gilt-edge of meaning. Back here in NZ it reads as just another lecture from yet another Apparatchik in yet another comfortable Dacha.

    Comment by Tom Hunter — September 14, 2016 @ 10:59 am

  34. “…Back here in NZ it reads as just another lecture from yet another Apparatchik in yet another comfortable Dacha….”

    A nice post modern slogan there. Sounds good, but is complete nonsense.

    Comment by Sanctuary — September 14, 2016 @ 11:01 am

  35. “…Fire in the belly with what? Another Welfare For Families scheme? Another Interest Free Student Loans deal…?”

    How about jobs, job, jobs? State subsidies to get industries to relocate to the provinces? A real effort to do something about working out how to get decent jobs for unskilled workers? A massive government home building program? taking back control of our economy by nationalising the banks? Even talking about that would cause those Aussie leaches to shit themselves. it’d be worth it just to see see the apoplexy on Cameron Bagrie’s face. Or taking back TVNZ as a proper state broadcaster? Empowering workers with German style workers councils? The hysterical opposition to OSH reforms in the wake of Pike river shows how seriously the boss class takes the threat of any sort of collective organisation by workers, so that seems to be on the right track…

    Comment by Sanctuary — September 14, 2016 @ 11:09 am

  36. …yet another comfortable Dacha….

    Which is pretty much a, you know, a Russian lifestyle block, only in Russia, cat shoot you.

    Comment by Joe W — September 14, 2016 @ 11:28 am

  37. Or taking back TVNZ as a proper state broadcaster?

    Errm, it already is a “proper” State broadcaster, inasmuch in that TVNZ already employs a highly visible, highly remunerated prime-time mouthpiece for the current government and is run by people highly sympathetic to its agenda.
    Or did you mean a proper public broadcaster?

    Comment by Gregor W — September 14, 2016 @ 11:38 am

  38. …shows how seriously the boss class takes the threat of any sort of collective organisation by workers…

    You know I was going to respond to each of your points in that rant, providing the slow-handclap only in response to that last, but really, it’s all so sad that I can’t bring myself to do it.

    H(x)|Ψ> = 0

    Comment by Tom Hunter — September 14, 2016 @ 11:41 am

  39. “How about … State subsidies to get industries to relocate to the provinces?”
    And the tax increases to go with it! Where can I register my vote? …against.

    “A real effort to do something about working out how to get decent jobs for unskilled workers”
    We’ve tried boot camp, no? Next comes boot camp+detox+hypnotic therapy for improvement?

    “A massive government home building program?”
    Well, Fletchers want to build 1500 homes in an old quarry. There’s all sorts of folk lining up to throw spanners. We could pass some legislation to force it through. Or is that “National looking after its rich mates”?

    “taking back control of our economy by nationalising the banks?”
    Yay, we’d own the banks, but the economy, which relies on investment (sorry: REAL investment, from people’s savings, not taxpayer spending that gets called “investment”). Nationalise one industry, whats to stop you nationalising more? That fear works wonders for private investment and employers’ employment intentions. Luckily (hopefully) you (or Corbyn) will never be allowed anywhere near the levers of power. Still, it COULD be worth it just to see those Aussie leaches, and all the kiwis who work for them or have deposits with them, shit themselves.

    Comment by Clunking Fist — September 14, 2016 @ 1:50 pm

  40. Really, sometimes I wonder if people on the left really do think that the economy is whatever the government allows or dictates.

    The economy is the measure of all those people working really hard to try and make a living.

    Comment by Clunking Fist — September 14, 2016 @ 1:54 pm

  41. Why are you arguing with Sanc guys? Just appreciate him for the glorious madman he is

    A.

    Comment by Antoine — September 14, 2016 @ 10:09 pm

  42. True. National voters trend to be low information voters and relatively inert. They know right from wrong, but they don’t post much attention to know who is doing right or wrong.

    Comment by truthseekernz — September 14, 2016 @ 10:37 pm

  43. I have always found Sanctuary a useful barometer of how potentially bad any intelligence is for LPNZ; i.e. the greater the word-count, the worse it is.

    Comment by leeharmanclark — September 15, 2016 @ 7:39 am

  44. I have always found the most obnoxious posters in these comment threads are the ones who give Sanctuary the most shit.

    Comment by Jason — September 15, 2016 @ 1:39 pm

  45. That preference for playing the man rather than the ball generally flags people who are seemingly locked into a college-year stance, unable to mature into adults. Nothing wrong with a witty put-down but it really ought to be deployed to mock generic inadequacies of belief-systems and point to flawed assumptions. Blog commentary can help us all by clarifying attitudes that prevent mutually-beneficial social progress…

    Comment by Dennis Frank — September 15, 2016 @ 2:24 pm

  46. Sanctuary is actually a character in one of Danyl’s yet to be published novels. He’s just playing with us.

    Comment by Tinakori — September 15, 2016 @ 3:26 pm

  47. Sanctuary is actually a character in one of Danyl’s yet to be published novels. He’s just playing with us.

    It is entirely possible that this blog is Danyl’s The Master and the Margarita.

    Comment by Gregor W — September 15, 2016 @ 3:52 pm

  48. Well I think he’s just fabulous. Yes, thats the only word I can think of to describe him.

    Comment by Lee Clark — September 15, 2016 @ 9:46 pm

  49. Long time listener, first time caller. . .

    I have always found the most obnoxious posters in these comment threads are the ones who give Sanctuary the most shit.

    @Jason above, pretty much this. The lazy ad homs come out whenever the dissenting view interrupts the circle jerk.😉

    Comment by The Pink Panda — September 18, 2016 @ 2:00 pm

  50. “The lazy ad homs”
    err “obnoxious posters” much?

    Comment by Clunking Fist — September 19, 2016 @ 4:30 pm

  51. “The lazy ad homs come out whenever the dissenting view interrupts the circle jerk.”

    If you stop bothering to monitor comments after about the first day or so (it varies between posts) then it often does the trick.

    Comments are sometimes interesting and people often have worthwhile extra things to say, but I think there was also something to be said for the stint of time when Danyl switched off comments entirely.

    Comment by izogi — September 19, 2016 @ 5:27 pm


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